Open Thread for Slash Discussion
I am opening this post for any and all who are interested in continuing the slash discussion from LotR Genfic. This discussion has been moved offlist since the list is a gen group and the discussion was starting to touch on issues that don’t necessarily belong on a family-friendly group. So that we could keep to the expectations of that group but also speak freely on more “adult” topics, I’ve opened up a thread here for discussion for any who wish to participate.
All thoughts and opinions are welcome. The only rule I have for this place is that I ask that people remain civil to each other. It is one thing to disagree with a point or idea and quite another to attack a the person expressing it. The first is okay; the second is not.
Finally, although this is a continuation of the LotR Genfic discussion, and although I am the webmaster of the Many Paths to Tread archive, my website is affiliated with neither, and this discussion is occurring independently of the list on which it originated. So, if you find yourself annoyed or angered by the conversation here, please don’t take it out on either of those groups.
My door, however, is always open to questions or concerns at DawnFelagund@gmail.com.
For those of you on the LotR Genfic list, you can find the original discussion thread here.
lease, come inside my humble cottage and have a seat by the fire. Many are the stories here, and they are not the sorts of stories you'll often hear beyond these walls. Yes, the world is listening--and judging--but do not worry. You are safe here. I am the Heretic Loremaster. I read the same books as everyone else, but I read them a little differently: I don't necessarily take them at their word. I like to look at the stories that build our mythological history from the eyes of those disfavored by that history.
Hi!
First off, thank you, Dawn, for opening this up for further talk– I always feel badly when a conversation needs to be curtailed for various reasons, and this is an excellent alternative.
I noticed that many of the responses Bonnie got to her post dealt with the questions of slash-in-general, rather than slash-in-specific-cases.
It seems to me that Bonnie was frustrated more by the particular pairing than by any bias towards slash-in-general or towards homosexuality in RL. I have to say, as someone who prefers for the most part, to read gen, I share her frustrations.
If someone writes OCs in a gay relationship, or minor canon characters about whom we know next to nothing, that’s one thing. But when characters who in canon were part of devoted canon couples are suddenly put into romantic relationships with others– well, to say the least it is OOC when it comes to Tolkien’s worlds.
To take two examples that Bonnie brought up: what do we admire about Sam and Aragorn? Part of that admiration has to do with their strong sense of loyalty and right and wrong. When either of them breaches the trust given them, by Rose or by Arwen, that’s OOC.
To account for this, some writers come up with explanations that “dispose” of the inconvenient female partner. (And incidentally disposing of their canonical offspring as well.) I’ve seen Rose married off to another, or killed off, or non-existant, or so much younger than Sam that she’s still a faunt when Sam returns from the Quest. Arwen generally fares a bit better, being shipped off on the next boat out of Mithlond.
Other writers have the female half of the couple suddenly “realize” that they should free the other half from their obligation.
And some take the step of simply including them into the slash relationship, creating OT3s or OT4s even.
I have to say that of all the alternatives, I actually find the last one more palatable. While it is doubtless kinkier ( and please don’t tell me the details) it is also much more fair to the discarded canon partner! (And insofar as hobbits go, I find “sharing” less offensive to hobbit character than jealousy!)
At any rate, the objection to certain pairings leads as surely to ” ’ship wars” as the objection to slash-in-general. But it is still a valid concern for those of us who *LIKE* canon couples, and do not necessarily find them bland and boring.
Hi Dreamflower, I think a lot came on the table during this discussion, but what strikes me the most now is the definition of what is considered out of character.
No matter how you will look at the books and movies, the letters and other material of the professor (unpublished or not), whatever we bound reading, there will always be a different interpretation of what person A might think to person B. I think that while people try to voice their frustrations, arguments are brought as in what people prefer to what they think is good fiction or what they consider in character or not. With that people (both readers and writers) perform a balancing act on a thin rope and it hardly can’t be avoided that the manner things are phrased, it will hurt another.
This brings me to the question: why is it so frustrating to see that people approach characters differently that others consider them OOC. Is it because we bring our own expectations to the table? Is it that we deep down long for unity in an approach for a character?
Nobody will write a character the same, there will always be a sundry of interpretations and takes. Is there really not enough room in this big sandbox that all those takes cannot exist?
A couple of questions came to my mind in this discussion. Firstly, as Rhapsody brings up, I do think that the notion of OOC will vary from person to person. To be fair, I am a Silm writer, and we do not have characters so much as skeletons.
I certainly understand frustration with stories where a beloved character strikes one as OOC. For example, nothing will make me put my head through the drywall faster than reading a story where Feanor is inexplicably and utterly evil. To me, this is a shallow interpretation and a major misreading of his character. I cannot wrap my brain around it. I have a fannish acquaintance who takes the opposite perspective as I, and we have on numerous occasions attempted to persuade the other with a complete lack of success. So even as I have accepted that I must “live and let live” where her reading of Feanor is concerned (and she with mine), I still have to swallow an urge to shout You’re missing the point!! whenever I see her defend her interpretation. I don’t pretend that I’m any less frustrating to her. 
So I understand that kneejerk No!! reaction, but I also think that “OOC” is hard to pin down as any sort of absolute.
I’m also curious why the frustration to OOC characters seems to almost exclusively concern slash. I’m not particularly well-read in the LotR fandom, but I’m also not naive; I know that there is a lot of slash and that some of the pairings mentioned in the original discussion have become OTPs in some circles. However, there are also non-canon het pairings, and I don’t see nearly the outrage directed toward them. I’ve asked this question before and never received an answer, and I’m honestly curious: Do the same feelings accompany, say, Aragorn/Eowyn as do Aragorn/Legolas? Those of you who don’t like non-canon pairings, why do you think slash receives so much more outrage than het? Is it because there’s so much more slash than there is non-canon het?
FInally, I’m curious about how people perceive the amount of slash that’s out there. Bonnie’s original post suggested that there was a glut of Hobbit-slash for Frodo and Bilbo’s birthday celebration. However, it also occurs to me that there are two major Tolkien archives where slash is not allowed at all. And there are several smaller archives and groups that do not allow it.
Having close friends who write mostly or all slash, I see the opposite perception coming from them: They feel that the mainstream fannish community is hostile and unwelcoming to them. Even stories that don’t meet the very liberal definition of slash that Bonnie provided on-list–those that concern OCs or do not require the breaking of a canon pairing; those that are written for purposes other than the titillation of their author–are nonetheless excluded from a good number of Tolkien fanfic sites because they involve homosexual pairings.
So it seems to me a conflict of perceptions here. Slash authors express to me their hurt and frustration at having what they regard as legitimate interpretations banned summarily; those who prefer not to read slash regard slash stories as existing in quantities like fleas on the dog. Any thoughts on why this might be?
Part of what I think most people are searching for in fanfic ( or else why read fanfic in particular rather than original fic ) is a certain connection to the fandom.
Of course we all bring our various mindsets to the interpretation of characters, but I honestly believe that what most people mean by “OOC” is a disconnect to certain basic characterizations in canon. Some of us wish to see much more than just the basics– we like a character more when we can recognize him or her from the books (or the movies, if the reader prefers those) and we like him or her less the further away from that the character strays.
That said, of course, not everyone is wanting to read exactly what Tolkien might have written himself if he ever got around to it (we can’t know that anyway), and some wish to explore areas he probably would never have even considered worthwhile. But even *those* people want to recognize Middle-earth and the people in it.
We show this in comments to writers, things like “You got Sam’s voice just right!” or “I think it is just like a scene from the books”, or “I thought that Aragorn was perfectly in character”, knowing that the writer will take this as a compliment and will also know what the commenter means by it.
We also show it by the fact that most of us will notice an inconsistency with canon or a wrong date or a wrong name– again, if we didn’t care, we wouldn’t notice. We may or may not tell the author, but we notice.
Sometimes a writer only cares about one or two particular characters, and so they do not mind the inconsistencies in others. And sometimes they get so caught up in their own particular ideas that they do not realize they are doing so.
Yet they will notice when they read the stories of others.
But it puzzles me why sexuality seems to operate on a different level. For example, many of those who are the most vehement F/S shippers will watch PJ’s RotK, and scream loudly “OOC!” when Sam leaves Frodo at the entrance to Shelob’s tunnel. They are quite right– it is OOC. But if someone points out ti tgen that Sam was a devoted married hobbit with thirteen children, they wish to excuse that with the counter of “It’s AU.” or simply “That’s different.”
So, yes, we may differ on interpreting some aspects of characterization– but that does not mean that consistancy in characterization is not important.
I think perhaps the reason slash comes up so often is that it is the most obvious visible sign of what puzzles many of us, as well as the fact that it seems to be what comes up in discussions like these most often. I’ve never come across a discussion thread about het in general as opposed to one on slash in general. But trust me, I’ve seen some that squicked me more than any of the slash I have read.
And there are other characterizations I object to as being OOC as well– babyish adult hobbits, Aragorn or Boromir as bullies, clown Gimli, cruel Gandalf– I’ve seen all of these and scratched my head over them.
And in fact, one gen characterization I find myself even more bugged by than slash are the “overwrought” friendship stories in which it is only the lack of physical sexual activity that differentiates it from slash– that and the writer’s fervent cry of “No slash in this story!”
As for how pervasive slash is, it does seem that way to many of us who like gen. Yes, there are a couple of gen archives– but there are several slash only archives .
I think a lot of the frustration also has to do with a shrinkage of the fandom, especially in those of us who prefer hobbit-centric stories. Many of those in our circles, who used to write lots of lovely hobbit gen stories are gone– having moved on to other fandoms or interests or due to the increasing pressures of RL. Before, those who were devoted hobbit-slashers tended to move in their own circles, while gen hobbit fanciers moved in *their* own circles. But as fewer and fewer hobbit stores are being written, we tend to seek what we are looking for, and increasingly the slash and gen (and het, though that seems to be the smallest group of all) readers/writers find themselves rubbing elbows.
Many slash writers are very talented, and often their stories could easily read as friendship (and without disclaimers of it) so it increases the number of stories to read, but still leaves us frustrated by finding fewer of the stories we like *best*.
So maybe slash is not as common as we think– but we are still seeing a lot more of it than we used to.
But what if an author who spents an immense amount of time on studying canon (we Silmwriters are often more prone to do that because as Dawn mentioned Silm as a book often presents skeleton characters, a further study helps us to gain more insight) and writes her own interpretation… yet to you or anyone else the voice or characterisation would not be right. It feels to me that it will not matter not whether a writer spends hours on studying the works or not. The moment when they write Sam in a slash role, they are flagged and called out on OCC’ness (or not, depending on the person). Tolkien canon as it is, is very difficult to pin down. If someone writes a story based on the books without combing through the Letters or HOME, their interpretation or take on canon should not be considered of a lesser kind than another who did take the time.
I think that the danger lies that if there is a group with a concensus that Sam’s voice should be exactly (or close enough) like that, it will not leave enough room for a different take. What harm is there if someone does it differently? What harm is there if after considerable thought they will not use a piece of canon.
Dawn: I know that there is a lot of hurt and bias towards slash writers. Even within this group, the femslash authors have to endure a lot of ridicule and hurt.
When people are okay with a canonical character having a fling with another canonical character outside or prior their relationship is considered to be ok, but once two of the same gender are paired up is not? Why would a het couple written for titillation (more for the reader than the writer, imho) receive less hostile reactions than a same sex pairing? Like you, I wonder what lies beneath such perceptions and treatment.
Obligatory disclaimer – the only characters I’ve ever actually slashed are my own OCs. That being said, there were a few points that I was trying to make in the original discussion.
Firstly, if you really look at things, human sexuality is far less binary than some people seem willing to acknowledge. Yes, there are people who exclusively prefer one gender, but there are others who don’t conveniently fit into ‘homosexual’ or ‘heterosexual’ labels.
Secondly, given extraordinary circumstances, there are a *lot* of people who self-identify as ’straight’ who’ll engage in homosexual activities. I’m a former military physician and I’ve worked in VA hospitals – one of the more common jokes we used to hear regarding this phenomenon was ‘What’s the difference between a straight sailor and a gay sailor? Six months at sea and a couple of beers.’ Men would come back from deployments terrified that their wives would find out, even more terrified that their commanders would find out. I’d put down my pen, ask them where to put the swab, and the details would start coming out. The sex often wasn’t about the sex act itself – it was often more about giving and receiving comfort, relieving boredom, relieving loneliness, and that sort of thing. I heard similar stories from patients in VA hospitals – veterans from WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm… it *happens.*
In the case of canon characters who are definitely identified as heterosexual – well, there aren’t any who are definitely exclusively heterosexual. We can certainly infer that Sam *preferred* the opposite sex, or he wouldn’t have fathered thirteen children – but who’s to say what might have happened before that marriage? We can infer that Aragorn *preferred* Arwen, but we don’t know with certainty what else might have happened in his life. We know that Eomer, Faramir, Merry, and Pippin were at least capable of performing with women, as they’re said to have children.
What I found a bit disheartening about the original post was the suggestion that people who choose to interpret Tolkien’s work in a particular way are somehow ‘cheapening’ it. The authors who choose to write Frodo/Sam or Aragorn/Boromir most likely don’t see it that way, and it *feels* disrespectful to those authors to me – as if you’re saying that slash authors’ work is somehow inherently not as good.
I’m not a fan of slash for its own sake, mind you. I’d like to see a plausible explanation for *why* two characters might have a relationship – but this is the same for me whether I’m reading het, slash, or friendship fic. I’m just as likely to find Aragorn/Arwen (canon and het) that’s not to my taste as I am Frodo/Faramir – but that’s not an objection to the pairing, it’s an objection to the writing. Make me want to believe it, and I’ll enjoy it.
Anyway. That’s my two cents.
Oh, and at Dreamflower’s comment that:
“And in fact, one gen characterization I find myself even more bugged by than slash are the “overwrought” friendship stories in which it is only the lack of physical sexual activity that differentiates it from slash– that and the writer’s fervent cry of “No slash in this story!” ”
All I have to say is WORD.
I think a lot of the divide between people who are comfortable with slash and people who are not deals with how much they believe a book is allowed to exist independent of its author. Whether you interpret something as slashy or not, it’s hard to see Tolkien as interpreting it as slash–even in such skeletalized characters as the elves we get in the Silm.
On one level it’s hypocritical for people who read and write fan fiction to be complaining when something “goes against the spirit of Tolkien,” because fan fiction itself by definition goes outside and beyond Tolkien. And it’s very hard to say something new about Middle-earth while only sticking to what Tolkien says (though not impossible, thanks to the ability of fanons cropping up like dandelions).
On another level I try to imagine what Tolkien would say if he saw some of the fan fiction out there, especially when people take those characters that were extremely fleshed out and close to him hold any sort of interpretation that he would disagree with. And because I side closer to the author than to the reader on this debate, there’s a part of me that can’t help but quail.
Ultimately I do not read any anti-canonical pairings (as in, they violate a canon pairing) in any of Tolkien, because I see that as a sign of disrespect. Those are really the only ones that I can make any academic argument for disagreement. The others I don’t read simply out of taste.
A few other comments that just deal with fandom in general…
I know that some of the vitriol between people “making straight characters gay” can be a bit ridiculous. What I would find interesting is a study in fandoms in which slash pairings are canon and try to see if the rancor is better or worse when people try to “make gay characters straight.”
It was actually the only way I could try to make a point across to one of my friends who was/is in the vanguard of the slashers in her own fandom.
I am still not backing down from my comment on how slash can be a safe exploration of sexuality for females who self-identify as heterosexual; however, I think it applies a lot less in the current LotR fandom where we often have older authors and readers who already are comfortable with their own sexuality. But in more teen-oriented fandoms there is a lot more of that going on as teens are trying to discover this new world that hormones have opened up to them. My friend that I referred to before actually began reading slash because she had had a bad experience early in her puberty.
Finally, we’ve been talking a lot about various forms of sexuality all over the spectrum. But I am curious as to how much the topic of asexuality is addressed, especially in the Tolkien fandom. It would seem to me that people who write about traditionally suppressed sexualities would also be interested in exploring those who do not feel strong inclinations towards sex at all.
Celeritas, thanks so much for elaborating on this bit further:
I am still not backing down from my comment on how slash can be a safe exploration of sexuality for females who self-identify as heterosexual; however, I think it applies a lot less in the current LotR fandom where we often have older authors and readers who already are comfortable with their own sexuality. But in more teen-oriented fandoms there is a lot more of that going on as teens are trying to discover this new world that hormones have opened up to them. My friend that I referred to before actually began reading slash because she had had a bad experience early in her puberty.
I don’t think anyone said that you had to back down, however I do think it would have helped immensely if you would have added this bit.
I am far from being a teen now and such a comment really took me aback for a moment because when I write such stories, my aim and pleasure does not from sexual exploration. This combined for example that I have read statements that femslash authors within our fandom are considered as sexual deviants by some… can you imagine how that feels to those who explore this bit within slash.
The fandom will have newcomers and will have vets, everyone writes erotica or romance for their own sole reasons. If people want to see what slash does to them as for an exploration, hey great. After all writing is a personal journey for us all and it would be so much easier on many if people would pause and consider, take the feelings of another into account. But what I do not get is the judgement, the disdain and condenscending comments and behaviour that slash and yeah, also het-writers within the Tolkien fandom from time to time get to endure.
Today someone told me that the SPN fandom also had these times, but this isn’t about a tv show, but about a collection of books where we have the priviledge to get a glimpse on what the professor thought and considered important. When I read HOME for example and see how much his own son Christpher had to guess and estimate on how his father would have wanted, then who are we to call out others if they have a different take, while still respecting the authorial intent.
@ Rhapsody:
Sorry about not elaborating sooner. I was in a hurry when I wrote that first comment and there had not yet been that much disagreement in the thread.
And that is an interesting point about femmeslash, which is a minority in just about all fandoms. Why should there be less of one kind of slash than another, if the intent of slash truly is to look at how homoerotic relationships would have played out in a certain setting?
What I don’t understand is why this is such a big deal.
You know, personally, I loathe Jane Austen. I find her books unbearably pretentious and boring. Also, personally, I think that only writing canon and nothing but canon is a sign of a profound lack of imagination.
But … am I running around and bashing people who happen to love Jane Austen? Who happen to love writing canon and nothing but canon?
No.
I’m happily writing my stories the way I want them to write, for people to ignore or enjoy as they please.
(In LotR I’ve written Elrond/OFC (because there’s nothing I hate more in LotR than Celebrían), Elrond/Gil-galad, Elrohir/OFC, Boromir/OFC, Èomer/OFC, and various and sundry canon pairings as the story demanded.
In HP I’m writing my OTP Hermione Granger/Severus Snape, and I’ve just finished a threesome story Hermione Granger/Draco Malfoy/Severus Snape.
In my original writing, I’ve written heterosexual and homosexual lovers and mixed threesomes.)
So what?
What’s the big deal?
For human beings sexuality comes in various forms. That’s simply a fact of nature. There is heterosexuality, various forms of homosexuality, asexuality. You get monogamous couples and polyamorous groups. There is abuse, and there is joy. Sex is linked with culture and history (the traditions of Ancient Greek love of boys, anyone?) and religion.
What is important is that you make the sex (be it canon-slash, AU-slash or the mating dance of pink sea-elephants) COUNT in your story, for your characters.
Especially if you’re writing a PWP.
I understand that those who write/read in the Silm universe have, in some ways, more leeway than those of us who write/read mostly in his more familiar works. (Total non-sequitor: Is there such a word as pre-humous, as opposed to post-humous?)
But yes, we can read a story and tell if Sam’s “voice” or Frodo’s “voice” is “off”– sometimes it’s off because the writer does not have an ear for it, or because they are writing from a different interpretation (like movie-verse), but sometimes it is “off” because there is an element of OOC-ness to it. Frodo and Sam and Aragorn and Gandalf– in fact, most of the major characters of LotR– have distinct personalities and we know them like we know our own friends. In the case of a few characters, even better, as we have even been privy to their private thoughts from time to time. When a writer, for their own purposes, whether of plot or because they’d like to explore a certain pairing or a certain AU, disregards those voices we do notice. This is not counting the fanon interpretations many of us are fond of.
This is much of why I don’t care for relationships that violate canon. It includes het as well as slash. It even includes canon couples who behave in a way that violates canon– for example, if a fic showed Aragorn and Arwen having an abusive relationship, I would consider that OOC. Personally, I would also feel that showing them having pre-marital sex would also be a violation of their characters. These two are noble and honorable and unselfish — and though some might find that boring, it’s a facet of their canon personalitiies that we should not just wish away because it’s inconvenient..
But so what if something is what you call OOC?
I think all that counts is if something is IN CHARACTER for the relevant story. If an author manages to explain to me how Arwen came to abuse and torture Aragorn on a daily basis, I’d say more power to that author. That could be a thoroughly terrifying, chilling, and incredibly worthwhile story.
Stop clinging to canon and the judgment of OOC as an excuse! Jump into the story and say why something does not work in THIS story, how the author has failed to deliver making her interpretation of Aragorn/Boromir/Fëanor react in a believable manner to the challenge posed by that story’s plot.
What you’re doing is like telling Tolkien that dwarves and elves can’t be friends. Or that it would be totally OOC for Hobbits to be heroes.
Well, I suppose that it lies in why people read fanfic, as opposed to some other sort of fic.
As I said, I truly believe that for most people, it is because of a love for the source material. Otherwise, why bother?
I should say that I can and have jumped into fics that made me believe in a certain OOCness– but only because everything *else* in the story clung even more to canon, so that I was able to fit the AU into the context of canon. Perhaps I could see the scenario described as part of a Ring-induced madness, but all of that would have to be slotted into what else I know of the source material.
To me, part of the challenge of fanfic, part of what makes it in some ways harder than original fic, is the use of canon to supplement and bolster the story in a way that the reader can connect with. All that we know about the story pervades what we read into the fic. For example, a fluffy little drabble about a happy Boromir looking forward to getting home after his long journey will come across as incredibly bittersweet, because we know what happens. An AU in which Frodo’s parents do not drown and he never becomes Bilbo’s heir can give us a shudder– because we wonder what will happen with the Ring NOW? And a story about a wandering Aragorn sighing over how he wonders if he will ever win Arwen’s hand makes us smile, again, because we know his happy ending will be coming.
And I wouldn’t presume to tell Tolkien that Elves and Dwarves can’t be friends because it is Tolkien who made the exception, and it’s up to us to understand why, and perhaps explore that why. And he is the one who decided that hobbits *could* be heroes, “in a pinch”. He made the world we call our sandbox, and I think it far more interesting to work within his parameters to find reasons for things than to simply toss them out as inconvenient or in the way of the story.
As an example from my own “universe”, I’ve never been fond of his idea that Men were prohibited from entering the Shire. But that’s a canon fact, and I have to work around it in my canon-friendly stories, or explain the lack of it in my AU stories. I don’t feel it would be right just to toss it out without dealing with his intentions.
Of course all of this is straying a long way from slash, het, etc. But I hope it does explain why a character being IN character, or at least having a reasonable canon-based explanation for being OUT of character, is important to me.
That’s exactly what I’ll never understand.
You know, I’m weird.
If I want to read canon, I pick up some books written by one J.R.R. Tolkien (or J.K. Rowling, or . . . ).
In derivative fiction aka fanfic, I’m interested what else you can do with that material. I want to see the derivative. The remix. Something new and exciting. And not the 1,000th view of one and the same canon scene where the sole difference is the exact shade of Arwen’s dress, and exactly how dull the prose of the piece is.
Bring me your slash pairings! Give me your AUs! Show me that you have imagination! Prove to me that you can think beyond what is printed in a book!
That, it seems to me, is true homage to a masterful writer, and only THAT fits what Tolkien himself wrote: “I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.”
Playing in an imaginary sandbox is NOT what Tolkien was talking about here.
Why are you so timid? What are you afraid of?
Juno, I’ve got to say that I’m with you here – if I want to read canon, I’ll read canon. I really rather like well-written things that explore those hidden areas that Tolkien didnt’ necessarily explore – I’m far more likely, actually, to read and enjoy a well-written OC fic than one that’s rigidly canon-compliant.
Celeritas, on the ‘disprespect’ point, I’m going to have to disagree – I know a fair number of slash writers who actually adore the source material and see what they’re writing as being a sign of profound love and respect for the original, and they not only would be but *have* been terribly hurt by suggestions to the contrary. On asexuality – *shrugs* I’ve seen a couple of pieces in Tolkien that deal with is, but I’d have to hunt for the links. I’m not so much interested in exploring sexuality as I am in exploring characters who must’ve been there even if they weren’t explicitly mentioned, and in finding obscure bits of canon to justify my own somewhat heretical interpretations of the original (like the round world from the initiation of Arda seen in ‘Myths Transformed’).
On what might be called ‘anti-slash’ in other fandoms (turning characters who are canonically gay into straight ones), I’d have to do some poking around. I can think of one series I’ve read in which it *might* happen – the ‘Outlander’ series by Diana Gabaldon features a gay character: Lord John Grey, who apparently can function well enough with women that he was able to keep his wife content, but is in love with the male protagonist of the series. Given that Lord John has absolutely crap luck at love (his lovers all die fairly horrific deaths), if anyone would be a candidate for being the opposite of slashed, it’d be him – but I’m not familiar enough with the *fandom* (as opposed to the canon) to say if it’s happened and if so what the response of the fandom at large was.
@ SurgicalSteel
I know that a great many people who explore areas of Middle-earth that I am not comfortable with exploring have a great and abiding love for the works.
However, when I was referring to respect (and I should have been clearer here) I was not referring to “respect of Middle-earth” but rather “respect of Tolkien’s intentions.” Whenever I read and/or write fan fiction, I cannot divorce (or can do so but hardly, and in specific cases*) Middle-earth from its maker and its maker’s apparent beliefs. It seems to me that those who do write slash are able to do so. And I respect the fact that being able to separate the two ends up opening reams of new possibilities; however, I cannot make it in my mind.
*I’m currently trying to look into those specific cases and see why I’m so okay with having ideas that might be contrary to Tolkien simply because they’re mine.
@Juno
Are the ideas of 1). doing something new, creative, and elucidatory and 2). working within the parameters commonly referred to as “canon” necessarily mutually exclusive? This is the path I’ve tried to take with my most serious writing, and I find trying to fulfill both points extremely rewarding.
I think this thread could use a little more controversy so I’m going to bring…religion into it! >;^)
In Letter 165, Tolkien wrote:
“I am in any case myself a Christian; but the ‘Third Age’ was not a Christian world.”
So, based on the above and “respect for Tolkien,” then I am within my bounds based on the author’s explicit intent stated above to say the following to an author:
“Your story has Christian elements in it. That’s disrespectful of Tolkien.”
Yet there’s quite a body of Tolkienian fan fic that incorporates Christian themes into the text. Where’s the hue and cry over that? How would a writer who expresses his or her deep Christian faith by incorporating such views into his or her fan fic feel if someone made that statement above — a statement that is legitimized by Tolkien’s remarks above and the contention that his works must be respected?
Moving on…
[Self-important yammering]
I’m a dark horse who is not in this race because I am not part of the group in question, but I have made observations here and there on this very issue. So, I’ll say this:
1. I respect a reader’s right to state that s/he doesn’t care for slash. Heck, with a nod to Steel’s remarks above (all of which I agree with), I’m not a fan of slash for its own sake or where it overcomes a plot. [I am a big fan of plot and character development. Imagine that.] However, I’m not a fan of qualifications that “Slash [or AU or Mary Sues or...or...well insert what offends you here] diminishes Tolkien.”
2. I find the preponderance of m/m slash with lip service (so to speak) given to femmeslash to be more than curious: it’s troublesome. Celeritas asked: Why should there be less of one kind of slash than another, if the intent of slash truly is to look at how homoerotic relationships would have played out in a certain setting? Again, based on my observations, I have seen this sentiment expressed by those who write and enjoy m/m slash: “I have nothing against femmeslash. It just doesn’t ‘do’ anything for me.” So that hints at various motivations for writing slash, I suppose.
To echo Dreamflower, the convenient and contorted removal of women from the picture borders on misogyny as I see it. It is because of women’s removal or diminishment (in a legendarium where men of the various races are the major players) that I have discomfort, not because of diversion from canon or vivid descriptions of same-sex coupling.
3. I want to see gender balance. I want to read story that engages me intellectually. I seek good characterization and a semblance of a plot. I want to recognize the setting as Tolkien’s mythopoeia (more on that below), but it needn’t be in lockstep with it. Thus, I’ll read a wide range of fan fic over a wide range of genres within the Tolkienian framework which includes hobbity stories, elf stuff, tales of Gondor and Rohan, examinations of orc culture, etc. That includes gen, het, & slash.
4. Tolkien’s intentions are often bandied about in these discussions. Let me put this forward: Tolkien coined the word “mythopoeia” — a created mythology. Now really look at what mythology means in our primary world’s culture. It is varied. It is fluid. Not all tales of the same event are the same. Canon becomes amorphous in a real mythology. So does history.
5. And speaking of “Mythopoeia,” I’ll say that it is a beautiful poem, but personally, I find JRRT’s sentiments in it presumptuous and even insulting. So I should respect someone who clearly did not respect the world view I share with his contemporaries whom he castigated as “progressive apes?”
Make no mistake. I love the Tolkienian mythos. But the sub-creator had feet of clay (as do we all) so I’m not quite so reverent as some.
[/Self-important yammering]
I’m glad I set up this thread. The comments have been wonderful.
Although we’ve veered a bit from the original question of slash (which is fine!), I do think that this discussion has illustrated, for me, one of my pet theories on the Tolkien fandom. *pets pet theory* Why do we write fanfic based on Tolkien’s books? I think we all have different reasons for this and I think this sometimes shows when we are utterly unable to understand one another, i.e., “How can you like that? How can you write that??”
I made this point as part of the original discussion and beg pardon for repeating it here for those who aren’t on the LotR Gen community.
I think we often have very different reasons for doing what we do. Some authors and readers want more of the books that they love. They want to read stories that sound like they might have been missing chapters that Tolkien himself wrote; even if they’re AU, they have that “Tolkienesque” feel. Others want to strike out in new directions using what Tolkien hinted at (exploring the culture of the Dwarves of Belegost, for example) or to look at events from the texts from a different PoV (such as Pandemonium’s stories that consider events from the text from Sauron’s PoV). Some want a complete remix–to borrow Juno’s term (and to use her fiction as a stunning example of how that can be accomplished)–and some use their stories to answer questions about the texts. There can, of course, be overlap, and I think that there usually is, but I also think that how much one cares for these different purposes (and the myriad others that I’m sure I’ve overlooked) kind of make up one’s fannish “personality,” so to speak and decide what one likes to read or write.
For example, I loved LotR–the movies and the books–but was never inspired to write fanfic about either. It was the Silm that stole my heart (and my muse!) because this book didn’t tell a story for me so much as open a big ol’ can of wormy questions.
So most of my stories tend to answer questions. What was this character’s motive? What would life have been like in this culture? How might traditions and morals have been similar or different under this particular set of circumstances? My favorite authors and stories also ask and answer a lot of questions in their stories. Not surprisingly, my favorite stories–both of my own and of other authors’–tend not to stick closely to the events of the book, even as I consider most to be “canon compliant.” (Keeping in mind that asking me to define “canon” will result–and has resulted–in an essay-length answer! 
)
At the same time, I respect that others have different motives in wanting to read and write fanfic. Some people want to see more stories like Tolkien might have constructed (or, at least, condoned). That’s cool. That’s not my reason for what I do, and those aren’t the stories that I tend to really enjoy, but I’d never hold harmless joy against anyone.
Or expect others to embrace what I love just because I love it.
I think the problem arises when one assumes that everyone in fandom possesses the same reasons and motives for writing/reading fanfic as does oneself. As Dreamflower points out, we’ve become a relatively small community in the post-movie era so I think it’s an easy assumption to make that everyone possesses the same rationale for writing/reading fanfic. After all, we have so much else in common! So when one encounters Frodo/Sam, it’s easy to chalk it up to the author having a bad ear for Tolkien (or outright disrespect), while the author belittles the reader for a lack of imagination, narrow-mindedness, and/or homophobia. In reality, I don’t think that any of those things are necessarily true; we are just writing with different purposes in mind.
For me, it will always come down in the end to trying to respect each author/reader’s reasons for writing/reading fanfic and, also, to reserve the right not to read or write stories that I don’t enjoy.
Pandë, we posted simultaneously.
But, as ever, I’m glad to see you address the “darker” side of slash. Because there are some assumptions that tend to be inherent in that community that bug me.
Namely: that writing slash makes one a crusader for GLBT civil rights. Nope, sorry, not buying that. I think that slash can serve positively in that respect, but I also think that it can objectify gay men in a way that I find really problematic. Just as putting a “heroine” into a story with boobs for brains and clearly intended to entertain the males in the audience at the expense of anything resembling self-respect is not liberating for women, I don’t think that all slash is either.
Because GLBT issues are at the fore of social change in many places at the moment (because even in “liberated” countries that recognize equal rights for same-sex couples, there is still work to be done; it is illustrative to me that my sister has only been harassed in public for being gay in England, where she lives happily with her wife, not the U.S., where they legally don’t know each other) I wonder if they get added attention for this reason, whereas issues like misogyny are so yesterday and are easier to ignore. But I see more furtive misogyny in fandom than I do homophobia. And, as you point out, among the more “progressive” fans too. And they often don’t want to hear about it, much less change it. Disturbing.
It’s not a matter of timidity or fear, I can tell you that.
I do like to explore unexplored areas, but I like the parameters and guidelines of canon. Perhaps I can give a better example of how it strikes me as a writer– there are certain forms of poetry that have strict rules. A sonnet is fourteen lines, and depending on the type, it has certain rhyme schemes. A haiku has three lines and a certain number of syllables to each line. A sestina relies on the repitition of certain words. You can’t write a twenty line sonnet– if you do it’s *not* a sonnet anymore. It’s something else entirely.
The challenge is to work within the form to create something original and moving that has something to say and makes memorable use of language. Following the rules of a sonnet does not keep that from happening.
The story *is* the story. Finding ways to examine and explore the story within the parameters of canon is a challenge. This does not preclude AUs– but to me it is a far more enjoyable AU if I can see the logic of the changes to canon.
If an event took place in the story, then take it into account– use it as a springboard, don’t ignore it. And if a relationship is canon, don’t violate it just for the sake of something different. It’s work– harder work than just making up something that has no relation to the story at all except for the names of the characters. But I think it results in better fanfic.
Tolkien created a very rich and amazingly detailed world, and he hinted at other things around its edges; and we also have many indications of things he considered, perhaps even hoped to use, but then never got around to, in his post-humous writings. With all of that to play with, we have so much to explore and so much we can do with the material he left us. Why ignore it just for the sake of novelty?
I don’t see too many fics like the one you describe where the only difference is the color of Arwen’s dress. I do see gapfillers answering questions about how something happened, or what happened in the time we weren’t shown, or the POV of someone we didn’t get in canon.
But the further it strays from canon the less I see of the story I loved to begin with– and as I have said several times, what’s the point of that? If it is not about the source material, why bother with fanfic in the first place?
I also think that it can objectify gay men in a way that I find really problematic.
Yes. This. How is that any better than objectifying women?
But I see more furtive misogyny in fandom than I do homophobia. And, as you point out, among the more “progressive” fans too. And they often don’t want to hear about it, much less change it. Disturbing.
And yes to this, too. I have to confess the irony of my shouting from this bully pulpit you have so kindly provided is that male protagonists abound in my writing. But that’s my tactic so that I may bring in the equally important female protagonists who start as no more than a reference or shadow. I also must confess that I quite enjoyed putting the following into the mouth of the male canon character of my ‘verse who is most likely to speak with an authentic authorial voice ;^):
The male and female principles must be balanced for life to be ordered. You and I may operate in a man’s world, but never discount the power and importance of women.
Pandemonium, I have to say, as a Christian I *STILL* find overt Christian symbolism in a Middle-earth story disturbing for the very reason you expressed.
Yes, JRRT made extensive use of Christian symbolism even as he denied its relevance to his world– BUT his use of it was suble and covert and applicable, rather than in-your-face, overt and allegorical.
There are certain fanfic writers I find painful to read (and so usually don’t) for that very reason– they hit you over the head with the Christian religion (and very often NOT the Catholic version JRRT espoused) in a way that I think would have made the Professor wince. (I’m fairly sure of this, given his reaction to CS Lewis’ Narnia stories.)
I’ve given classes at church on the Christian themes in Tolkien’s work, but themes are one thing. Turning poor Frodo into a plaster saint, or perish forbid, a Middle-earth version of Christ, is something else again.
(There were several “Christ-figures” in LOTR, but each of them was simply a symbol of certain aspects, NOT a literal equivalent. In Narnia, Aslan *was* a literal equivalent of Christ– big difference!)
Back to the idea of canonicity in stories, I know that I find your stories (what I have read of them so far, and I am hoping to read more) rooted very much in canon. We see Sauron’s POV– but we also see the events unfold as the events unfolded. You “humanize” him, in making his thoughts and motives accessible, but his actions remain his actions, and you may try to make him understandable but you don’t try to turn him into a “good guy”.
It makes a much better and more complex story than if you were totally revisionist, or made it completely AU. In fact, I hope it wouldn’t offend you to say it makes me think of Milton’s Satan. But it wouldn’t work if you did not root it all in the world we were given.
Anyway, I hope you are not insulted by the comparison. *grin*
I also think that it can objectify gay men in a way that I find really problematic.
Yes. This. How is that any better than objectifying women?
*giggles* I’m sorry, I really wanted to be all scholarly and stuff coming over here, but… what can I say *shrugs* I’m not going to lie. Sometimes, two guys in love is hot. Then again, so is a guy and a girl. Two girls in love, that’s more cute than hot to me, but my brothers (one whom shared a house with a lesbian couple for a few years) would beg to differ on that.
But then… one of my best friends is THE most adorable cub I’ve ever met, and he and I will sit on the couch where he works and he will drool over the guys that come in and point out which ones are hot and such, and I spent a fair amount of time in a fandom where the majority of the fanfic was being written by gay and bi men, so my influences just sort of unintentionally carried over in that aspect… but I’m digressing I think…
I… wish I had something better to add to the conversation, but… I don’t. And, I’m guilty of so many things in fanfic that people are often ‘no, no, we really shouldn’t do that’… one such awesome moment being following readings by three Tolkien fanfic writers of excerpts of their works (two slash, one het, all three in the realm of erotic), I read my piece and had three people walk out — I had chosen a piece so unmistakably about religion. And, I don’t know, I guess I was (still am) sort of proud that, it wasn’t the pornography that offended, it was the religion that made people squirm a little. Anyhow… please… continue with the more scholarly discussion… I am enjoying reading it…
Zhie:
*giggles* I’m sorry, I really wanted to be all scholarly and stuff coming over here, but… what can I say *shrugs* I’m not going to lie. Sometimes, two guys in love is hot.
I agree! What I take issue with is the idea that a slash story is necessarily progressive on civil rights issues (I know there is a better way to say that … sorry, my brain got swiped for a wad of cotton, methinks). Or slash authors who view themselves as crusaders for GLBT issues just because they write slash. I don’t think that’s the case, though.
On your reading, I would be proud too. After all, I named this weble The Heretic Loremaster for a reason!
Or slash authors who view themselves as crusaders for GLBT issues just because they write slash. I don’t think that’s the case, though.
I’m no crusader, but I have written pieces about adoption rights of gay parents and somewhat on the ethics of gay rights in general… but then, I’ve tackled other social issues, too, like racism with peredhil in Valinor and other things that my brain can’t think of because it wants to think of cute couples now…
Dreamflower:
I don’t see too many fics like the one you describe where the only difference is the color of Arwen’s dress.
Something I discovered when I read all of the First Age stories nominated for the MEFAs was the sort of story that lifted very heavily from the Silm–in one case, the author lifted passages verbatim, enough that if I was feeling persnickety, I could have invoked the SWG’s rule about fair use and attribution of sources. (Since the story was hosted, among other sites, on SWG.) Yet the story was obviously regarded highly enough to be MEFA-nominated, and there were a few others of its type that I encountered while on my reading marathon that fit the same pattern.
I think that those are an extreme example, just as Feanor/Frodo is an extreme example of AU but, I almost guarantee that it exists somewhere.
But–not to put words into Juno’s mouth–I can say that when I think about the point she’s making, those are the stories that pop into my mind.
Zhie:
I absolutely think that fiction can be “progressive.” (Cotton still inhabiting cranium, you see.
) I like to think that the slash I’ve written touches on some real-life issues … in my wildest dreams, I imagine that it might even make people see each other a little differently! Probably not but a pie-eyed optimist can hope. 8^)
Likewise, I could pull my scientist’s cred and quote studies reporting objective measurements of women’s physical responses when they watch films of heterosexuals engaged in intercourse, gays and lesbians similarly engaged and, uh, chimps going at it. Women’s sexual response is rather amorphous compared to men’s. And I like to think that I am in touch with my inner bonobo so what I consider hot is rather varied. However…
Two girls in love, that’s more cute than hot to me
Umm, that may be the case to you, but I can well imagine lesbians taking issue with their genuine passion being called “cute” whether real or fictionalized.
Well, I said “not many”, of course, not “none”. I have to say though that the use of passages from canon in gapfillers is a technique I think is sometimes called for– *with* attribution! I’ve done it often, and one of my favorite AUs by another author makes very extensive use of the technique– again *with* attribution!
But I gather you are talking about something else entirely.
I’m fairly sure of this, given his reaction to CS Lewis’ Narnia stories.
HA! Yes, very good point! My point is that people don’t come out and state my example aloud but they could. Legitimately. But with slash, it’s fair game.
Back to the idea of canonicity in stories, I know that I find your stories (what I have read of them so far, and I am hoping to read more) rooted very much in canon.
To write effective AU (I prefer the term “alternate history”), one had best know the texts in order to manipulate them. Although there is a decidedly alternate take in part of the Pandë!verse, I strive to keep it recognizable as part of the Tolkienian legendarium, even if the story setting is taking place in a mythical version of an equivalent of India!
. You “humanize” him, in making his thoughts and motives accessible, but his actions remain his actions, and you may try to make him understandable but you don’t try to turn him into a “good guy”.
Nope, he’s not a good guy, but that doesn’t preclude elements of good remaining in him. I guess it’s the humanist in me coming through. :^)
In fact, I hope it wouldn’t offend you to say it makes me think of Milton’s Satan. But it wouldn’t work if you did not root it all in the world we were given.
Anyway, I hope you are not insulted by the comparison. *grin*
Insulted!? Heh. Look at my moniker: “Pandemonium.” Milton is one of my favorite poets, and Paradise Lost *swoon* (the edition with notes by Philip Pullman) sits within reach. No, I’m not insulted. :^) Quite the opposite! Many thanks!
I’ve found a happy medium. I enjoy reading slash, but I don’t write it.
I’ll read any well-written AU, which I consider slash such as F/S to be, for reasons stated by others above. For the record, I would consider Aragorn/Eowyn or Faramir/Arwen AU also – those are not the pairings that Tolkien gave us. Even with AUs though, I prefer for canon to be recognized and adhered to as much as possible. I have no problem whatsoever with pre-quest or during-quest F/S, so long as Sam is of age, but post-quest F/S can be bothersome – because of Sam’s canonical marriage to Rose. I once read a fic in which Sam actually abandons his wife and Elanor to sail with Frodo to Aman! IMO, that’s way OOC. But I’ve also read fics where Rose is aware of and supportive of Sam’s sexual relationship with Frodo (and Sam remains in ME to father his 13 children), and I can accept those on their own terms, even if I don’t agree with the morals (hobbits are monogamous, and such relationships are not, by definition, monogamous, even if they are loyal).
As for my own writing, like Dreamflower, I like to work within the canon as Tolkien provided/intended, but I do get a little AU every now and then, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. For instance, in my current story, I missed a date on the timeline and now the twins are in Gondor when they shouldn’t be – unintentional, but I do have a way of getting them out of the city so they can join Arwen’s escort from Rohan, so it ends up the same as in the canon. I also have the hobbits figure out Aragorn’s secret regarding his coming marriage to Arwen before she arrives in the city – intentional, and Frodo’s statements to Aragorn in the book still read the same way whether he knew about the marriage ahead of time or not. Then there are the Haradrim in the story – I’m still scratching my head over that one! I don’t know how they got there! But as for the canon issue, Tolkien states that Gondor will go to war eventually with Harad, and my story doesn’t rule out that possibility at all – despite the alliance being formed. Alliances are tricky things, even in times of peace, and they shift/change constantly. I can justify them being there since Tolkien wrote in the canon that Aragorn met with many foreign diplomats after becoming king.
I try to think of these guidelines whenever I approach a story: Would it fit with what Tolkien wrote/intended? Usually, the answer is yes. If no, would it change the canon so dramatically as to make what Tolkien wrote irrelevant? In this case the answer is usually no. So far, I’m still toeing the line of canon. I can think of only one instance in which I answered this question with a yes. On this instance, I had to decide if that was something I was willing to live with in my universe? The answer was no – but I wrote the story anyway as an epic “what if?” stand-alone, and it is one of the most fun and rewarding fics I’ve written.
So does this mean that none of my characters are gay? Well, no. Nature being what it is, it’s only to be expected that ME has homosexuals. As I post at a gen-archive, the only characters that have ever presented themselves to me as gay (a minor canon-character with absolutely no page-time and an OMC) have thus far remained in the closet, though I do hint at it in subtle ways. Would I consider writing their story and posting it at a slash-friendly archive? I don’t know. The bunny nibbles at me every now and then, but so far has remained docile. I’d be more worried about not being able to do the story justice than I would be writing about gay characters. I fear that cliches would abound in excrutiating numbers! I cringe just thinking about it.
Now what really puzzles me is mpreg. Unless it’s Alien Nation or a wacky Bill Cosby dream-sequence, men cannot get pregnant! Forget canon. It’s a biological impossibility. *scratches head* Anyone care to try to explain that one? Be forewarned I probably still won’t understand it, but I am curious for an explanation.
And Surgical Steel – John Grey does have bad luck with lovers, I admit, but Percy did manage to get away (just barely!) without meeting a bloody end.
To write effective AU (I prefer the term “alternate history”), one had best know the texts in order to manipulate them. Although there is a decidedly alternate take in part of the Pandë!verse, I strive to keep it recognizable as part of the Tolkienian legendarium, even if the story setting is taking place in a mythical version of an equivalent of India!
See, that’s EXACTLY what I’m talking about! Respecting canon and the world JRRT created does not preclude originality or creativity! There are so many people and places to explore! Blank spaces on maps, or countries that are mere names and hints, names on the family trees, brief sentences in the Tale of Years…
Ack! It’s past my bedtime, and the spouse is dropping heavy hints– I must reluctantly leave the conversation for tonight!
It’s been fun.
Now what really puzzles me is mpreg. Unless it’s Alien Nation or a wacky Bill Cosby dream-sequence, men cannot get pregnant! Forget canon. It’s a biological impossibility. *scratches head* Anyone care to try to explain that one? Be forewarned I probably still won’t understand it, but I am curious for an explanation.
It baffles me too, but something my former computer animation teacher (and a friend of mine studying animation) said comes to my mind now: “The point of animation is to do things you can’t do in real life,” even the unbelievable, weird things. I guess fiction (and fanfiction) are usually the only places where people can see a pregnant man, so people take advantage of that regardless of how baffled fellow fans who expect more realism are going to be.
One person’s OOC is another person’s reinterpretation.
Since no two people reading a given text interpret it exactly the same way, who gets to decide on the “proper” characterization of Sam?
Professor Tolkien? Since he’s dead and all, I don’t think he’s got a whole lot to say on the subject. Furthermore, since he was an extremely learned man who interpreted texts as a part of his job, I think if he were around today he would know better than to try and interfere with the manner in which his readers are interacting with his work. He would know that pushing “authorial intent” upon his readers is both a lost cause and a colossal insult to our individual intelligences. Of course I could be wrong about him; maybe he was an insufferable snob who disdained the hoi polloi with every ounce of his ivory-gilded breath. But, you know, I like to think he was a better man than that.
I’m going to pull out the Straw Canatic Argument ™, with the full awareness that it is a Straw Canatic Argument ™, and that all of what I’m about to say is both diffuse and generalized.
There is a specific trait I have noticed in the Straw Canatic that I don’t see addressed in the many discussions centered around fanfic elements that tend to stray away from canon (slash, OCs, AUs): that nasty creepy little underbelly-style sense of entitlement. The Straw Canatic takes issue with “deviating” characterization because the Straw Canatic feels entitled to receive his/her interpretations of Tolkien characters from other authors. While I strongly believe that the text/reader relationship is an interactive one and don’t hold much truck with the whole idea of authorial intent, the whiff of entitlement wafting off the Straw Canatic worms its way into my knickers and chaps my ass something fierce. My own style is radically interpretative, and to be sure part of my hackles-up reaction is plain old defensiveness, but…hey, man, come on. A big part of it is this: don’t fucking tell me what to do, all right? I don’t expect other writers to interpret Tolkien’s characters the way I interpret them, and I’m nowhere near presumptuous enough to label my interpretations “correct” and another person’s interpretations “incorrect.” And yet, this is exactly what the Straw Canatic wants: arbitrary standards of characterization, even though an arbitrary standard is impossible to build.
Something that all this discussion has triggered, will take me even more off-topic, and possibly ramble quite a bit…
Ambiguity.
We’ve been talking a lot about the differences between canon, so-called authorial intent, and the reader…
What about when people deliberately decide to muddle those differences as much as possible?
Oftentimes some of the best fics will leave big questions (especially respecting Whammies that are in danger of making a statement on ethics, religion, sexuality, etc.) open.
I’ve never run into deliberately sexually ambiguous fics (about the closest thing I’ve found is when I’ll read a fic and something about two characters’ relationship strikes me as a little bit odd and when I check out the author’s other work I discover she ships them), but I’ve seen oodles and oodles of them in other areas that we either love or hate to discuss.
And I honestly find these powerful, and really, really admire the strength of the author for refraining from “making a statement” as it were. Not only does it allow me to read my own interpretation into the matter, but it also allows me to think through others and see how they would also work in the situation–far better than if my own or an opposing viewpoint were simply slapped on there.
And part of what I love about Tolkien is how he leaves a number of things in his story very, very open-ended (was Frodo’s will involved at all at the Sammath Naur?). I’m curious as to whether anyone else can think of 1). instances in which she thinks that Tolkien was deliberately or semi-deliberately ambiguous, or 2). instances in her own fiction where even if she has an interpretation of something that happened she leaves that portion out and lets the reader make her own conclusions.
Ambiguity, if it’s handled well, does a really good job of encouraging people to step outside their own perspectives and thus unify the fandom beyond individual interpretations.
@ Pink Siamese
The Straw Canatic takes issue with “deviating” characterization because the Straw Canatic feels entitled to receive his/her interpretations of Tolkien characters from other authors. While I strongly believe that the text/reader relationship is an interactive one and don’t hold much truck with the whole idea of authorial intent, the whiff of entitlement wafting off the Straw Canatic worms its way into my knickers and chaps my ass something fierce.
Yes, that is the same vibe I do get. I hope you don’t take any offense Dreamflower, but when you write that once the hobbity part was large and gen fic writers and slashy writers shared their works in their own circles, it left me with the feeling when people do support gblt issues, but not in their own backyard. Once the group grows smaller and the issue moves into the backyard of the gen group for example, it comes across to me that the limits of tolerance have been met.
But why? Why are reasons of OOC and uncanonical trotted out suddenly if the years before such issues were left at peace? Is it because it causes such a huge conflict in how canon should be treated to those who’d rather not see Frodo/Sam delivered on their plate? Nobody is forcing you to read it, right?
Canon, especially the Tolkien kind, is more flexible that people presume, the same goes for character & plot interpretation. Yes, also in Lord of the Rings. Comments as ‘oh you got Sam’s voice so right’ is flattering, but at the same time it does set those apart who do not get such comments. It works intimidating on new authors with the feeling that they will never get drawn into the hobbit writers group because they might envision Sam’s voice differently. Also such statements serves as a manner of self-indentification within a group, that those writers who think alike about matters remain tightly knitted close. But from the outsiders or newcomers perspective, it hurts… I can understand the need for a group, or finding people who think alike. But when people start to lay claim on one interpretation of a character, or that only canon pairings are the right one, you exclude a group of talented, kind writers at the same times who absolutely do not deserve such treatment (unknowingly or not). I really cannot imagine that this is healthy for a group that is growing smaller over the years. Even if you cannot make yourself to read it, just expressing that you respect the views of another would already give another the impression that their works are just as much welcome than others.
While doing so I will strongly plead to look at what a writer is good at and not lifting out the things that read wrong to you. While giving concrit to an author, you can also offer help that when a writer struggles with Rosie whose Sam has a relationship with a male hobbit. You can sit down and try to see as to the why they feel the need to ditch a female character, work with them to see if they can get a grasp on Rosie so that she can remain in the story. This probably will require a lot of work, but it does have its own rewards where both the concritter and writer will discover a different way of characterisation and plot writing.
Oops, I was an idiot, and posted this in the yahoo group before I realised…. doh!
***
I don’t really have a two pennies worth to add to this discussion, but…
I don’t read LotR slash, but I think that’s just because I’ve read a lot of fic and know that for me, that’s just not what I want to read for this fandom.
However, my other main fandom is Torchwood, where it’s canon and for that fandom I read (Jack/Ianto), but also het, and equally gen.
I think also I look differently upon the labels in each – in Gen for LotR I wouldn’t usually find point in mentioning ‘who’s with who’ so to speak, unless it plays a part in the story, whereas if I was writing a short gen piece for Torchwood it wouldn’t be out of place for characters to kiss for example (it is probably worth mentioning here that I only actually read Gen for Lord of the Rings – hence why I can’t really comment).
One word I would put into the discussion is ‘Homosociality’ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosociality)…
I’m glad to see the discussion is still going this morning.
Pink Siamese says:
The Straw Canatic takes issue with “deviating” characterization because the Straw Canatic feels entitled to receive his/her interpretations of Tolkien characters from other authors.
I will say that to a certain extent there may be a little truth to this– NOT to the extent that I, or others, feel entitled to the stories we like, but we like the stories we like and feel frustrated when we can’t find them. To be honest, I am sure that these feelings are probably shared by those who ’ship non-canonical pairings as well. Perhaps this contributes to the sense that both groups have, that they are “outnumbered”.
No one in any fandom is “entitled” to particular stories, and yet at the same time, we are constantly searching for them.
First of all, I’d like to say that for many of us, there is a dichotomy between what we write and what we read. I do not *write* slash; I will read it sometimes– and several of my favorite writers are slashers. But I do not care for sexual explicitness in either het or slash, and generally end up skipping over the more torrid passages. If it happens too often, I sometimes will give up on a story. No one forces me to read a story with a rating higher than I generally like, and I have no one to blame but myself if I am disappointed when trying to read one. But if the story and the characters are good enough, I can get by, though I’m sure the writer might laugh at me if they knew I was overlooking their carefully crafted erotic scenes.
But here it is: I will read out of my comfort zone, but it’s nice not to have to. All of us like to read what we like to read– I won’t deny that to others.
Mainly what I’ve been trying to show however, is that there is a reason for the sense of frustration those of us who like canon couples and a certain amount of adherence to canonicity in stories feel when we can’t find the stories we like.
No, we aren’t “entitled” to them, anymore than ’shippers are “entitled” to stories filled with their favorite pairings.
Rhapsody said: Even if you cannot make yourself to read it, just expressing that you respect the views of another would already give another the impression that their works are just as much welcome than others.
Well, as you see, I do read it sometimes. And when I do I find something positive to say about it, or I don’t say anything at all. But that is my policy for any fic I read– gen, het, or slash. I don’t give concrit publicly unless it’s in a forum for that purpose, or unless I know the author extremely well, and know I won’t offend.
On the other hand, it’s hardly fair to characterize those who like canonicity as “boring”, “bland”, or “timid” or to accuse us of homophobia because we believe that it makes for a better story when it fits into the framework that Tolkien gave us.
Pink Siamese also said: Professor Tolkien? Since he’s dead and all, I don’t think he’s got a whole lot to say on the subject.
No, he’s not saying much now; he had a good deal to say when he was alive about his world. Many of us feel, dead or alive, that he is still owed respect and gratitude for the tremendous gift he gave us.
A gift, you say? Well, it belongs to us, surely we can do as we like with it.
Yes. But it we truly value that gift, we should do what we can to show respect for it and for the giver.
As I’ve said before, it seems to me that if one is writing fanfic, that pre-supposes a certain amount of familiarity and fondness for the source. If you don’t love the world and its characters, why bother? Why not just write original fic and be done with it?
I suppose that is what puzzles those of us who value canon, when we see someone express total disdain for that canon.
@Pandemonium – you’ve got a bigger pair than I have for opening up the religion can of worms. I know I’ve mentioned that to you privately. I think it’s extremely difficult to bring overtly Christian elements into the story and still make me want to suspend disbelief – I’ve seen lembas essentially turned into Communion wafers, and one whole set of stories that essentially reads (for me) like a hagiography of St. Frodo. I generally hit the back button – but what irks me is that it seems that these stories ‘violate authorial intent’ just as much as including slash. I’m also with you on wanting balance – and I want believable characters, too. I want to see them make the mistakes that might or might not end up really screwing up their lives, and I want to see those little quirky flaws that make them human. The characters in LOTR had them, goodness knows: Frodo procrastinates (delaying leaving the Shire until September even though he probably should have sooner), Sam’s afraid of deep water and boats, Pippin’s overly impulsive, Aragorn dithers about decisions for a while, refers to certain races as ‘lesser’ and comes across as a bit condescending toward the staff of the Houses of Healing. And Gandalf is something of a master puppeteer, in some respects. I like the characters *better* because of the flaws – I can relate to them more easily.
@ Celeritas: Many of the authors who explore areas you don’t feel comfortable with actually feel that they respect *Tolkien* a great deal, not simply his work, and they really are hurt and insulted when people say differently. On the ambiguity thing – I have a fic archived on the SWG called ‘Far Side of the World.’ I operate on the premise from ‘Myths Transformed’ that the world was round from its inception, and have a set of Numenorean mariners sailing east until they hit the *west* coast of Aman. Once they figure out where they are, they get the heck out, head back to Numenor long enough to grab their loved ones, and bolt for Middle-earth, worried that they’ve unintentionally broken the Ban and that Numenor’s fall is imminent. The story ends with two characters meeting each other several years later and realizing that Numenor *hasn’t* fallen, and asking one another ‘Did the Valar even know we were there?’ I leave it to the readers to decide for themselves if the Valar were ignorant of the unintended transgression, or if they knew and for whatever reason chose to ignore it.
@ Gamgeefest: Yay, another Gabaldon fan! Hee, you’re right, I’d almost forgotten about Perseverance – and then I started reading ‘An Echo in the Bone’ last night. I don’t really understand mpreg myself, at least not in the Tolkien fandom (although I know people who adore it). I’ve actually seen it done in the HP fandom in a way I considered believable, but it’s been long enough since I read the story that I’d really have to scrounge to find it.
I’m over here via Juno, so you can blame her.
Now what really puzzles me is mpreg. Unless it’s Alien Nation or a wacky Bill Cosby dream-sequence, men cannot get pregnant! Forget canon. It’s a biological impossibility. *scratches head* Anyone care to try to explain that one? Be forewarned I probably still won’t understand it, but I am curious for an explanation.
I am an mpreg writer (though in DC Comics rather than LOTR) and also a “science person” (my minor coursework for my degree was in the biological sciences), so scientific accuracy (as much as possible) is very important to me and I spend a lot of time researching what I write about.
If you are going to criticize biological impossibility in Tolkien’s world, then you need to start with the source material itself and criticize the notion put forth by Tolkien that Elves and Men can create viable pregnancies that result in fertile offspring!
But this is also a magical world where rings can make you invisible, orcs can be genetically engineered from elves, and those elven vertebrates can live forever — all scientific impossibilities at this point, but the magic overcomes that. So why is it such a stretch that, say, elves may in some way function like some species of reptiles & amphibians and be able to switch genders? Or some magical item gives a male character the ability to gestate?
And male pregnancy is at least theoretically possible in the real world. There are cases where pregnancies have developed outside the womb, the fetus attached to another organ, and successfully delivered a healthy baby. The same concept would be used for a male, though some sort of hormone therapy would be required, and this is actually being investigated in the real world (check out Wikipedia on “male pregnancy” for links). In my own mpreg story, the pregnant men are Green Lanterns, which means they have a “magic” ring that can keep the pregnancy hormonally balanced within their bodies. The pregnancy itself came through the actions of a sentient virus (sentient viruses already exist in DC Comics canon). Delivery via c-section, obviously. Not something that’s likely going to happen spontaneously on its own, but still plausible with outside interference whether through hormone therapy, alien viruses or magic.
So, yes, given some thought and research, a plausible, science-friendly mpreg can be written! And the existence of magic in the universe just makes it easier! Just because many (maybe most) authors treat mpreg as pure crack!fic and do not choose to write a plausible, scientifically accurate version does not mean it can’t be done.
@Surgical Steel
@Pandemonium – you’ve got a bigger pair than I have for opening up the religion can of worms. I know I’ve mentioned that to you privately.
Heh. As far as cojones go, I’ve taken on big fish in the form of Casey Luskin, the PR guy for the Discovery Institute (the Intelligent Design crew).
Yep, we’ve discussed this privately, but I figured this was the time and place to bring it out into the open. Incorporation of Christianity into the Third Age is just as fair game for criticism as “not part of Tolkien’s intent” as slash is. Why should religion be a sacred cow (so to speak)?
a hagiography of St. Frodo.
All righty, that nearly made me Pollock my monitor. I have to confess to incorporating allusions to Christian ritual into a couple my fics, but as a means of subversive commentary: religion can be of great benefit to people, but it has its dark side, too.
The characters in LOTR had them, goodness knows:
Absolutely! That kind of characterization – humans with quirks and flaws — was (and is) what made the trilogy so appealing.
I can’t say I am familiar with much Frodo/Sam slash although Pink Siamese (see above) wrote what I thought was a fantastic and highly believable erotic scene between these hobbit icons in her fabulous A Dawn of Many Colors. Anglachel has a novella on HASA which addresses homosexuality among hobbitry that offers an excellent, sophisticated treatment of the subject; the name of the story escapes my geriatric memory. I have also read wonderful hobbit gen fic from those posting in this thread.
I like to compare our forays into fan fic to a group of art students in a studio, seated around a set-up of a vase of flowers, bowl of fruit, etc. – the classic elements of a still life. Their instructor tells them to paint the subject in any style they choose. Some will produce realism, some will produce expressionism, others will be abstract, but ultimately, one sees the form of the subject. And as with all art, not everyone will find every style appealing. With such subjectivity, is one entitled to tell the artist to her face: “This style is an insult to art?”
@Aranel
I love your Hal and Kyle mpreg scenario. And yes, there’s plenty of scientifiction in Tolkien’s world. However, ” criticize the notion put forth by Tolkien that Elves and Men can create viable pregnancies that result in fertile offspring!” That’s not really all that far-fetched. Scientifictitious hand-waving (but based on RL discoveries made in the past several years — not unlike science fiction writers tapping into exotic discoveries in physics to explain their posits) involving gene regulation and signal transduction of such things as protein and nucleic acid repair, sirtuins, telomeres and the like can offer a plausible scenario for two sub-species of H. sapiens with functionally identical genotype — which would allow for birth of fertile offspring — but with phenotypic differences like indefinite longevity vs. mortality.
I have to suspend belief over a flat earth, planst surviving in prolonged periods of darkness and astronomical bodies made from fruit.
A few thoughts that come to mind as I read the new comments this morning …
Tolkien’s intention/respect for his world: Hey, there’s a slash pairing we can all get behind.
This has been brought up in a few comments now. I have no problem with this serving as personal guide to authors, i.e., “I personally feel this goes against JRRT’s intention/vision of his world, so I’m going to choose to write/read something else,” or “I personally don’t find that a respectful use of the works, so I’m going to avoid it,” but when I think it becomes problematic is when it is turned from a personal guide and into a means to judge some stories broadly as better or worse than others because of the author’s choice of subject, voice, or interpretation. Take this passage from the posting requirements on a well-known Tolkien archive:
This is a fancified way of saying, “Stories that go against Tolkien’s intentions or disrespect his world are not acceptable.”
This is really, really problematic to me when it moves beyond one’s personal taste. Firstly, JRRT is dead. Unless your Ouija board is a lot better than mine, then he ain’t talking. (And even if he was, he’d probably continue changing his mind from day to day anyway, so we’d be no better off than we are with the sources that we have already.
)
Secondly, inferring his “intent” from his published, posthumous, and private writings is thorny ground. Again, I don’t include personal taste in this; I do not feel that I have the right to tell people what to like or dislike. I mean using his writings to make guidelines to broadly judge the worth of a story or subgenre. Tolkien himself often didn’t know his own intent. His writings, if anything, reveal how fluid and uncertain about his own “canon” he was at any given moment. And that doesn’t even begin to touch how certain of that canon is “tainted” by editorial in[ter]ventions from Christopher Tolkien.
In light of those facts, the real problem that I have with “respect” and “intent” as criteria for broadly judging stories or subgenres is that they invoke a higher authority to stand in for what is, in reality, one’s own personal taste or opinion. If I dislike the interpretation in a particular story, it is not enough for me to say, “I just don’t like that. I don’t agree with it. It doesn’t fit my vision of Middle-earth.” Instead, I must claim that, “That story goes against what Tolkien intended. It is disrespectful to Tolkien.” No longer is that story an offense against my personal taste (which is negligible) but an offense against the author and his vision … that’s a pretty heavy accusation.
I fully respect each person’s right to read and write what s/he chooses. And I fully respect the right of the person who pays the bills on a website to determine what s/he will or will not post on that website. People will vote with their feet. But I do take issue with the metamorphosis of “personal taste” into “offense against a higher authority.” As SurgicalSteel has pointed out, that is insulting. I’ve no doubt that many of my stories would not be acceptable for the archive I quoted above. If it doesn’t meet their personal tastes … fine. But don’t insult me by implying that those stories were authored with any less respect for Tolkien’s work or that they are a “distort[ion of the] moral basis” or that I’m just too stupid to know what I’m doing. I’ve no doubt that Tolkien and I would not have gotten along for a variety of political, moral, and creative reasons. And I’ve no doubt that he would not have agreed with many of my interpretations of his work. But he was also an academic as well as a writer, and I like to think that he would have at least accepted that any work worth discussing or writing about is going to result in quite a complex of viewpoints.
Homosexuality as canon: I must confess that I have been surprised by the number of people who are willing to casually affirm that, sure, some characters in Middle-earth were gay. This is somewhat opposite what I have encountered in the past, where I often feel like my defense of the acceptability of slash begins with a crash course in how homosexuality is canon!
Do people think this has become the acceptable viewpoint?
Dreamflower: ‘I will say that to a certain extent there may be a little truth to this– NOT to the extent that I, or others, feel entitled to the stories we like, but we like the stories we like and feel frustrated when we can’t find them. To be honest, I am sure that these feelings are probably shared by those who ’ship non-canonical pairings as well. Perhaps this contributes to the sense that both groups have, that they are “outnumbered”.’
I think frustration is certainly a big part of it.
I mean, the whole reason I founded the SWG was because I was so tired of wanting to read a Silmarillion story, going to a Tolkien archive, and having to wade (then) through 20 LotR movie stories, 18 LotR books stories, and then maybe find a one-shot of how Maglor laments on the shores of Middle-earth. I think that all of us with defined tastes in reading, to an extent, experience this from time to time.
To go with what Pink Siamese was saying, though, I think that people respond to this frustration in ways that are either positive or negative. I want to see more of the fiction I love, so I build a group or website for it; I review, rec, and nominate for awards the authors who are writing what I like; and I write my own in hopes that the community will grow and I will reap the advantage of having more of what I like to read.
But some people take the negative angle to that: trying to discourage or even get rid of stories that they don’t like. Lobbing insults at stories they don’t like or understand, creating a hostile creative environment for those authors, advocating for arbitrary exclusions based on personal taste alone … I think that here you see the sense of entitlement that some people feel show through.
‘On the other hand, it’s hardly fair to characterize those who like canonicity as “boring”, “bland”, or “timid” or to accuse us of homophobia because we believe that it makes for a better story when it fits into the framework that Tolkien gave us.’
I agree. There is mudslinging on both sides of the debate, which is unfortunate. I fail to understand why one cannot accept what one loves and also respect that another person has found what brings her joy … even if the source of that joy personally makes one want to vomit, tear out gobs of hair, or put one’s head through the desk!
“I suppose that is what puzzles those of us who value canon, when we see someone express total disdain for that canon.”
I can say that, as someone who has been accused of all manners of heresy under discussion here
, that many times, critics think my interpretation a disdain of canon as well. But it’s not. It’s just a different interpretation.
I don’t like the word “canon” for precisely that reason: It has become a loaded term and tends to mean so many different things to different people yet is, by definition, a body of facts when it is nowhere near that simple in Tolkien’s Legendarium. For example, to me, the canon of canon is that Rumil and Pengolodh were the fictional authors of The Silmarillion so we must, at all times, in determining the “truth” of the texts, bear in mind what motives, biases, embellishments, and outright lies those fictional authors may have brought to the text. (The same goes for LotR although I am less familiar with the transmission of those texts; however, they have, in part, at their origin Rumil and Pengolodh too; they are, if anything, more problematic because of issues concerning transmission through multiple oral and written sources, to say nothing of translating from Quenya to Westron [to English].)
Aranel: It was recently discovered in the Potomac River that male fish were laying viable eggs. So–yes!–even pregnancy isn’t always confined to one gender.
And good points all about the influence of magic. Immortality is a much harder pill for me to swallow than male pregnancy.
Immortality is a much harder pill for me to swallow than male pregnancy.
You reallly want me to write that essay don’t you?
Another thought that just came to mind with respect to why some people like to create stories that do not conform tightly to what is read in the texts …
Some of us see Tolkien’s intent as creating a mythology. He also expressed a hope that others would carry on work in that mythology.
I think that once a work moves from being assessed a fiction story and is understood as a myth, then conforming to facts (like the date of the twins’ arrival in Rivendell) or trends (like a character speaking a particular way) in the original become less important. Because, of course, myths vary greatly in all of these regards; each teller put her or his own special mark on that myth. The success of stories spun from these myths, then, become dependent on what Juno said way back near the top: internal consistency and the value of that story on its own merits, independent of the original.
That’s not to say that this is the correct way or even the better way to view JRRT’s work versus viewing it as a story and trying to make it fit the framework and conventions of the original. But it’s yet another way to look at the original books and the transformative works that we derive from them.
Pandemonium: Whatever would give you that idea?
*wanders off to lunch whistling innocently*
However, ” criticize the notion put forth by Tolkien that Elves and Men can create viable pregnancies that result in fertile offspring!” That’s not really all that far-fetched.
Yeah, I was thinking in terms of “horses + donkeys = mules” as the example of species interbreeding to compare to “men can’t have a baby”. But in both cases there are exceptions (as you pointed out re: species), so there is less and less things left in the “biological impossibility” box every day. And while we may snicker or go “eww!” at male pregnancy today, if you go back a hundred years and describe in-vitro fertilization to someone, you’d probably be considered a sick, perverted freak by the average person.
I have to suspend belief over a flat earth
It’s scientifically sound if the earth is properly seated on the backs of four elephants, who are in turn standing on the back of a giant space turtle. At least according to the researchers at Unseen University. :-p
@Aranel
so there is less and less things left in the “biological impossibility” box every day…if you go back a hundred years and describe in-vitro fertilization to someone, you’d probably be considered a sick, perverted freak by the average person.
Exactly! I have no difficulty with mpreg in sci-fi. Look at how many science fiction authors have dealt with alternate sexuality and means of reproduction, e.g., Asimov’s The Gods Themselves. When I first encountered the idea in JRRT’s world, I did a major Whaaaaat? but then (not surprisingly) started thinking about it in a scientifically speculative manner. And now lookee here — Tolkien himself came up with a word — gwegwin –in “Gnomish,” the predecessor of Sindarin for “hermaphrodite!” Oooh, the possibilities!
Tolkien’s languages reveal a lot about his mythopoeia. Here’s Darth Fingon’s fab article on the subject of obscure words from which I pulled gwegwin: Twenty-Two Words You Never Thought Tolkien Would Provide.
It’s scientifically sound if the earth is properly seated on the backs of four elephants, who are in turn standing on the back of a giant space turtle. At least according to the researchers at Unseen University.
OK, that did make me Pollack my monitor!
@Dawn
I’ll do my Henry Gee impersonation.
OK, this will be short. But I read some of the replies to this yeasterday and have been thinking about one of them. The person seemed to be useing the loss of potential fictional children as a reason to be against slash. It seemed to my reading that she was saying if you take the female out of the coupleing and put in another male you are destroying the children that could come from the male/female coupling. Now, if siad children where writen about by Tolkien and play ANY real role in his stories, then you have a point, but if they are not mentioned or are named and do nothing in any future story, there is no point.
Just wondering…
@Dawn and Aranel: good points about pregnancy – the one fic in the HP fandom that I saw which got it right made it clear that the fertilized eg had implanted in a male character’s liver and that it was entirely possible that continuing the pregnancy might lead to hepatic rupture and death – and I’ve seen a few authors essentially turn Frodo into a hermaphrodite. It’s possible to make it plausible enough that I’ll suspend disbelief. I’ve got one person on my flist whose personal kink is pregnant Frodo undergoing intimate examinations by a stern Aragorn – and nothing at all sexual about the story, strictly a professional and thorough and uncomfortable exam. Why that’s her favorite thing in creation, I don’t get – but I’m glad she enjoys those stories.
@ Dawn: Re: “I don’t like the word “canon” for precisely that reason: It has become a loaded term and tends to mean so many different things to different people yet is, by definition, a body of facts when it is nowhere near that simple in Tolkien’s Legendarium.” Yes. This.
Interestingly enough, when you really look at things, the same problems exist in Biblical canon, but that’s likely a can of worms for another day.
@Pande: “And speaking of “Mythopoeia,” I’ll say that it is a beautiful poem, but personally, I find JRRT’s sentiments in it presumptuous and even insulting. So I should respect someone who clearly did not respect the world view I share with his contemporaries whom he castigated as “progressive apes?” ” Yes, exactly. I respect the world he created, I respect his scholarship (I’m in envy of his linguistic skills) – but he wasn’t a saint either. The level of ‘respect’ demanded for him in some circles seems to border on veneration of the saints in the Catholic church.
And I’d like to see that essay on elvish immortality, too, y’know. Tightly regulated apoptosis would be one rather important thing, I’d think…
@Dreamflower: “I suppose that is what puzzles those of us who value canon, when we see someone express total disdain for that canon.”
Except that not everyone who writes something that seems to be extremely off the wall is trying to express disdain for canon. They simply have a different interpretation of it.
Pandemonium says: “I like to compare our forays into fan fic to a group of art students in a studio, seated around a set-up of a vase of flowers, bowl of fruit, etc. – the classic elements of a still life. Their instructor tells them to paint the subject in any style they choose. Some will produce realism, some will produce expressionism, others will be abstract, but ultimately, one sees the form of the subject. And as with all art, not everyone will find every style appealing. With such subjectivity, is one entitled to tell the artist to her face: ‘This style is an insult to art?’”
Yes. This. Thanks so much, Pande, for this lovely and most functional metaphor.
Dreamflower says: “[Regarding Professor Tolkien] No, he’s not saying much now; he had a good deal to say when he was alive about his world. Many of us feel, dead or alive, that he is still owed respect and gratitude for the tremendous gift he gave us.”
I object to being told by others what the “proper” way of demonstrating my respect for the source material is, and I object to being told by others that how I choose to do so is incorrect and/or insulting to a man who is no longer around to decide for himself whether or not he is being insulted. It’s like the freedom of religion in the USA: how I choose to worship is none of your business.
And since we’re on the subject of the source material anyway: the notion that choosing to reinterpret the material in a “heretical” manner demonstrates a lack of knowledge (and/or lack of respect) of the source material is…just…just…ridiculous. Many folks who write re-interpretative Tolkien fanfiction know just as much about the source material as the Straw Canatic. It’s not about how much knowledge one has, it’s about how one chooses to use it.
Aranel Took says: “If you are going to criticize biological impossibility in Tolkien’s world, then you need to start with the source material itself and criticize the notion put forth by Tolkien that Elves and Men can create viable pregnancies that result in fertile offspring…this is also a magical world where rings can make you invisible, orcs can be genetically engineered from elves, and those elven vertebrates can live forever…why is it such a stretch that, say, elves may in some way function like some species of reptiles & amphibians and be able to switch genders?”
I have a hard time with mpreg, mostly because when I find it in fanfic it pushes all of my tender little feminist buttons, but I find this to be a compelling argument. I can’t abide mpreg when the person writing it has given no thought to the biological mechanics behind it, but a convincing reinterpretation of the Elvish race that can switch genders under certain conditions…now that is interesting.
Tristan: I think that probably referred to Sam and Rosie Gamgee, who had thirteen children according to the books (the Appendices of LotR, if I’m not mistaken, but I am so not a LotR expert! *flounders* Dreamflower, where are you!?
) And, of course, Sam is also Frodo’s OTP slash partner in a lot of fan fiction. 
The argument I’ve seen with respect to Sam and Rosie’s children is that post-Ring Quest Frodo/Sam slash doesn’t make much sense (to some people) for the reason that Sam and Rosie had thirteen children. So Sam was pretty busy with Rosie, and they likely had a healthy enough relationship/marriage to produce those children. To a writer who wishes to stay true to what’s presented in the books, those thirteen children can be a challenge!
And I think that it was noted that some authors have simply eliminated the children altogether. Or Rosie altogether. Which is an alternate universe scenario that some people find distasteful, for a variety of reasons.
@Tristan: not sure if you were referring to me or not, but the point I was making was that the Appendices and other bits in the HoMe suggest that certain canon characters are at least capable of performing with women for long enough to get them pregnant, because they have named offspring. That doesn’t mean they never had sex with men, IMO – just that they weren’t exclusively homosexual. I read slash and enjoy it, I just want it to be believable.
@Aranel: And while we may snicker or go “eww!” at male pregnancy today, if you go back a hundred years and describe in-vitro fertilization to someone, you’d probably be considered a sick, perverted freak by the average person.
Good point. And the one known male pregnancy in humans (a transgender man who kept certain crucial female parts) creeped out more than a few people, too.
@PinkSiamese: I can’t abide mpreg when the person writing it has given no thought to the biological mechanics behind it, but a convincing reinterpretation of the Elvish race that can switch genders under certain conditions…now that is interesting.
Oooo, I’d like to read that, I think!
And…
Many folks who write re-interpretative Tolkien fanfiction know just as much about the source material as the Straw Canatic.
Yes. Exactly. I see some authors insist that LaCE is Truth and Must Be Respected and then two breaths later insist that the world was flat and that Ar-Pharazon raped Miriel and usurped her throne. Well, if LaCE is absolutely Truth, then doesn’t ‘Myths Transformed’ with its round earth deserve the same level of respect? And ‘The History of the Akallabeth’ with its passages suggesting that Miriel willingly and gladly married Pharazon and handed over the throne to him – isn’t that at least as likely to be valid as LaCE?
I have no objection to people picking and choosing which bits of HoMe to use (I shouldn’t, because I do it
), but I do object to people telling me which parts of HoMe are ‘correct’ and which are ‘clearly something he meant to discard, so we should ignore that.’
@Dawn: Thirteen children, Appendix C. You’ll have to wait for Dreamflower if you want their names.
I keep meaning to write one of Sam and Rose’s children studying in the Houses of Healing in Gondor, because Sam Gamgee’s name came from an actual 19th century British surgeon named Samuel Gamgee. He worked with Lister.
*takes off surgery geek hat*
Surgical Steel says: “I see some authors insist that LaCE is Truth and Must Be Respected and then two breaths later insist that the world was flat and that Ar-Pharazon raped Miriel and usurped her throne. Well, if LaCE is absolutely Truth, then doesn’t ‘Myths Transformed’ with its round earth deserve the same level of respect? And ‘The History of the Akallabeth’ with its passages suggesting that Miriel willingly and gladly married Pharazon and handed over the throne to him – isn’t that at least as likely to be valid as LaCE?”
It’s all so contradictory! Once you start reading past JRRT’s fictive texts (the stories alone, without any of the appendices or supplemental materials) and you run into all sorts of problems. The man himself said that as a collective it was meant to function as a mythology, and myths are full of archetypes and narratives stripped down to their skeletons. It seems to me that in declaring his body of work a mythology, he invited a fluid sort of interpretation and expected it. Even reading within the fictive texts there is so much room for speculation and expansion.
It’s all so contradictory! Once you start reading past JRRT’s fictive texts (the stories alone, without any of the appendices or supplemental materials) and you run into all sorts of problems. The man himself said that as a collective it was meant to function as a mythology, and myths are full of archetypes and narratives stripped down to their skeletons. It seems to me that in declaring his body of work a mythology, he invited a fluid sort of interpretation and expected it. Even reading within the fictive texts there is so much room for speculation and expansion.
Exactly!
@Dawn — Ooh, thanks for the heads up about the intersex fish! I can probably use that! *makes note to Google*
And everything you said about channeling Tolkien’s thoughts through the Ouija board and Christopher Tolkien “tainting” the evidence makes me go *nod nod nod*! Nobody, not even Chris Tolkien, can know exactly what JRR’s true intentions and feelings were. Though, considering he himself sold the film rights to his works, I think we can assume that he at least did not consider them to be sacred texts that must remain pure and unchanged by other hands. He even said in a letter, RE: the enquiry by an American film-maker about the possibility of making a cartoon film of LOTR: “As far as I am concerned personally, I should welcome the idea of an animated motion picture, with all the risk of vulgarization; and that quite apart from the glint of money, though on the brink of retirement that is not an unpleasant possibility. I think I should find vulgarization less painful than the silification achieved by the BBC” (Letter 198)
And in his criticism of the script for Bakshi’s film, he doesn’t seem overly upset that the ending of the book was cut, only that Saruman’s disposal was changed to suicide: “[Zimmerman, the script writer] has cut the end of the book, including Saruman’s proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs is the way of the sort of person he had become. If Z wants Saruman tidied up (I cannot see why, where so many threads are left loose) Gandalf should say something to this effect as Saruman collapses under the excommunication: ‘Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!’” (Letter 210). So there we have it straight from the horse’s mouth that he was not completely opposed to major changes in ‘canon’ in others’ derivative works, and he even added his own suggestion for the change to make more sense.
@pandemonium — thanks for the link! And it doesn’t surprise me at all, considering Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar. I’ve been researching Anglo-Saxons to write my Rohirrim, and I have dictionaries of Old English words complete with wee-wees and hoo-hoos and poop and sex. And this is the people who created the riddles in the Exeter Book, where blatant sexual innuendo turns out to be describing an onion or a butter churn or kneading bread (what were you thinking it was? *wink wink nudge nudge*), works that Tolkien would have been very familiar with! I would hope that he at least got a chuckle out of the girl pulling the onion. XD
Old English also has a term for hermaphrodite — bæddel — which also refers to an “effeminate person” (which can probably be assumed to mean “homosexual man”). So I wonder if Tolkien would have meant gwegwin to have both meanings in the Elven languages as well.
I finally have a chance to reply and the discussion has taken off without me…
SurgicalSteel, I’d like to retract what I said about people who explore the limits of canonicity not respecting Tolkien. Even if I personally dislike the product it is not fair to these people’s own intentions in what they create.
I think it boils down to what people think Tolkien’s intentions were. If they were to create a world that was completely unbound by his own perspective then people are allowed to explore things in directions Tolkien himself never would have taken.
If on the other hand people see Middle-earth as an organic outgrowth of /all/ of Tolkien, they might want to take his personal beliefs into account and wish to continue exploring in the directions he took–only, hopefully, go deeper to uncover something new.
The other really weird thing about Tolkien’s quote of deliberately leaving some things skeletal to be pieced in by other people… nowhere in that quote does he mention “more fiction” as a method of fleshing in (he stops at drama). And I seem to recall a rather vitriolic reaction the one time that he did see someone’s attempt at fanfic…
If there *is* any proper way to go about doing this (and that “if” is colossal in size) there ought to be a mix of both perspectives. We know exactly which approaches Tolkien took by his texts, so any time we write any fan fiction we are automatically deviating from that. Too much deviation, though, and you wonder why the author is setting this in Middle-earth when with a bit of name-changing you could have an original universe. And as I said earlier a little ambiguity can go a long way in helping readers explore interpretations.
@Pink Siamese- I have a hard time with mpreg, mostly because when I find it in fanfic it pushes all of my tender little feminist buttons, but I find this to be a compelling argument.
How does it push your feminist buttons? Is it the concept itself, or how it’s usually handled in fic? Just curious, since I write them.
Aranel Took says: “How does it push your feminist buttons? Is it the concept itself, or how it’s usually handled in fic?”
The concept itself. Why must we have pregnant men? The female presence in media and literature has been co-opted enough by men, must we hand over our wombs as well?
Putting pregnant men into a story cuts out the female, which disturbs me greatly. If an author wishes to write two men who desire to have a family, why can’t they do what real-life gay couples do and find a surrogate? Or adopt? Or even use some kind of sci-fi technology to create an embryo out of two sperm cells and grow it in an artificial womb?
The idea of a sex-switching Elf or a hermaphrodite is a different matter. A gender-switching creature is one sex or the other. A hermaphrodite is both. I suppose that technically either of those things couldn’t be called “mpreg,” because there are wombs and ovaries and breasts involved. The thing is, though, mpreg is usually just that: one man makes another man pregnant. Given the trend in fanfic toward “all OFCs are evil” and “women are yucky,” I look at mpreg as a phenomenon and see a subtle (or not-so-subtle, depending on the individual story) level of misogyny.
Goodness! I got home from work–and whoa! There’s a lot going on here…
SS: first of all, squeefulness! I keep meaning to write one of Sam and Rose’s children studying in the Houses of Healing in Gondor, because Sam Gamgee’s name came from an actual 19th century British surgeon named Samuel Gamgee. He worked with Lister. Yes, yes, yes!
And if you are waiting for me to name Sam’s kids, I suppose I will have to attempt it without recourse to the book sitting at my left hand… (I don’t guarantee the proper order though)
Elanor, Frodo, Rose, Merry, Pippin, Goldilocks, Daisy, Primrose, Hamfast, Bilbo, Robin, Ruby, Tolman! (And at one point JRRT considered a 14th, Lily.)
Now, as to my statement about disdain for canon, I want to make it clear that here I am not talking about stories, but about people who actually *say* they don’t care about canon– the attitude is, this is fanfic, and its fun and canon doesn’t matter at all. I don’t think you can get much more disdainful than that. *That’s* the sort of attitude that makes me scratch my head and wonder “Well, if you feel that way about it, why bother with fanfic in the first place?”
I don’t have a problem with “heretical” interpretations– as SurgicalSteel and Pandemonium both know, I’ve enjoyed their forays into heresy even if I don’t necessarily agree with the interpretations, they are valid and interesting and give one furiously to think. Not to mention being cracking good stories.
But they are very solidly rooted in canon, whatever interpretations they put on it. The story is the story, and the events are the events, and the characters are recognizable. Even in the AU version of SS’s stories, the changes are still given their proper places within a canonical timeline.
I’ve read a number of interpretations of characters that are different than the usual– Denethor is a prime example of a character who seems to be villified most of the time (and I myself buy into that usual characterization because it seems right to me), yet there are a devoted cadre of Gondorian writers who specialize in creating likable Denethors. When I read their stories I suspend my disbelief, and can buy into their ideas.. But whether you interpret him as an all-round nasty jerk, or someone who went mad with grief, or just someone who is misunderstood– in the best of these stories he is still recognizable as Denethor– and not simply because the writer calls him that. He has characteristics that make us imagine him as Denethor, even if it is a version of him that is at odds with our own version.
Pink Siamese says: I object to being told by others what the “proper” way of demonstrating my respect for the source material is, and I object to being told by others that how I choose to do so is incorrect and/or insulting to a man who is no longer around to decide for himself whether or not he is being insulted.
I take issue with the idea that just because someone is no longer around, others have no right to defend them against the perception of disrespect. When no disrespect is intended, then that should be made clear– no offense meant, none taken. But if someone is actually thumbing their nose just because they can, then I think it is disingenious of them to be surprised if they are called on it.
We have certain rights– we can say what we want and we can write what we want and we can post what we want. But that means that others have the right to object to our doing so. That falls within their rights as well.
One more thing: when it comes to *writing* stories, I have rather strict standards of canonicity for my own work, even when I venture into AU territory. I’ve made my share of canonical blunders, but I acknowledge that they *are* blunders.
When it comes to *reading* stories, I am not as strict– as long as I can recognize the characters and the shape of Middle-earth within the story, I will cut the author an awful lot of slack.
But here is a truth: when it comes to the stories I like *best*, the ones that stick in my mind, the ones that make me go and re-read them over and over– these are stories that show attention to the story that Tolkien wrote, that capture the voices of the characters I love in the books, and that illuminate something about his world that I hadn’t thought of before. They may not be in his style of writing, they may be serious or funny, but they all are of a piece with the world JRRT created– I can recognize it as the place I have loved all these years..
As for judging “what’s canon?” it’s easier for those of us who mainly write in the Third Age. TH and LOTR are undoubtedly the books he published in his lifetime. All other material is useful and helpful, but judging the canonicity of it is up to those who use it. The Silm and UT, I personally would consider basically canon, although I know that some feel there is too much intrusiveness from Christopher in them. But for story-writing purposes, they could be canon. HoMe and Letters are more problematical– I find them more in the category of “quasi-canon” . For story purposes, we can cherry-pick them, I suppose. I know I do, mining them mainly for names and plot-bunnies.
Goodness, all this has strayed very far from the original discussion of slash!
*grin*
Pink Siamese said: Given the trend in fanfic toward “all OFCs are evil” and “women are yucky,” I look at mpreg as a phenomenon and see a subtle (or not-so-subtle, depending on the individual story) level of misogyny.
This puzzles me. I come across this sentiment a lot in comments on various forums, but truthfully, I haven’t seen it a lot in the stories I read. The only thing I do see it in a little bit, is in slash OTP stories where the author eliminates the female rivals for one or both of the male characters. I always just assumed that had less to do with “females are yucky” and more to do with that particular female being in the way of the writer’s OTP. Is this something more common in other fandoms than LOTR, or am I missing it because I mostly read gen?
I know I’ve seen a few people who like slash saying that het squicks them– is that related to this?
(I have to confess here that *explicitness* of either flavor squicks me. I don’t mind listening to someone’s OTP squee, but spare me the details.)
Some good arguments for mpreg! Thanks everyone. That makes more sense now, though it’s still not a genre I would read.
Dreamflower says: “I take issue with the idea that just because someone is no longer around, others have no right to defend them against the perception of disrespect. When no disrespect is intended, then that should be made clear– no offense meant, none taken. But if someone is actually thumbing their nose just because they can, then I think it is disingenious of them to be surprised if they are called on it.”
So what if they are? If someone wants to disrespect Tolkien, that’s his/her right. You don’t get to tell anyone how to interpret Tolkien’s characters, and neither do I. Everybody’s free to do whatever they feel like doing. I guess it all boils down to a really simple concept: if you don’t like it, don’t read it. Or write it. That’s simple enough, right? Since you and I are never going to agree, I’m just going to drop it.
Dreamflower also said: “I come across this sentiment [that mpreg could be construed as misogyny] a lot in comments on various forums…am I missing it because I mostly read gen?”
Since the majority of slash stories are romantic relationship-centric and the majority of gen stories are not, it’s entirely possible. It seems really obvious to me that eliminating the biological mother from a child’s life could be seen as misogynistic—not the elimination of the biological mother’s role (as would be the case in a story with homosexual adoptive parents or a surrogate), but the full-on elimination of the mother. Nobody writes stories about lesbian couples spontaneously conceiving. I think if mpreg wasn’t a feminist issue, there would be tons of femmeslash everywhere and lots of spontaneous lesbian conception (which you’ll notice doesn’t have a catchy abbreviation like “mpreg”).
But there isn’t, which tells me that lots of women deep down have some kind of aversion to writing about other women, even in nonsexual situations. Men don’t have this problem at all. A quick look at anything published by men (which for many many years was just about everything) shows hundreds of pages populated by scores of interesting and dynamic male characters. You look at fanfiction, most of which is written by women, and you see…hundreds of pages populated by scores of interesting and dynamic male characters. Where are the women? With mpreg, even the traditional role of “wife” and “mother” is handed over to a man.
But there isn’t, which tells me that lots of women deep down have some kind of aversion to writing about other women, even in nonsexual situations. Men don’t have this problem at all. A quick look at anything published by men (which for many many years was just about everything) shows hundreds of pages populated by scores of interesting and dynamic male characters. You look at fanfiction, most of which is written by women, and you see…hundreds of pages populated by scores of interesting and dynamic male characters.
Hoy. Say what to the what now?
I’m totally with you on how mpreg can be seen as a feminist issue.
And I can see that (and why; the publishing industry thinks male protagonists sell better than females) there would be a tendency, simply born out of habit and tradition to write mostly male characters.
But I don’t know about “lots”. I’m seeing this through the lens of gen and (mild) het, so your mileage may vary, when I do read any romances they’re often trying to create suitable partners for the interesting and dynamic male characters Tolkien gave us. The ones that work well have (unsurprisingly) interesting and dynamic female characters. And in the realm of genfic we have completely original characters as well as mothers of canon characters who manage to skillfully shape their sons into the adults they become.
Which is not to say that there is no bias. I am still irked at the fact that we have fic of Pippin going through early puberty (I needed to know this why?) but at the same time few stories of what it was like to grow up female in the same society (despite the fact that that is something the predominantly female readership would identify with). And you could argue that the fics that I alluded to above are not perfect examples since most of the time the women exist in the fic in reference to men. But I don’t think there’s a widespread phobia.
Also, there are more male characters in Tolkien than females, and people tend to like reading about canon characters more than they do OCs, male or female. Then there is a distinct phobia among newer writers that their OFC is going to be labeled as a Mary Sue, especially if she is the protagonist of a story. Rather than making sure that their OFC is interesting and dynamic (which is a great Sue-accusation-repellent) they can quail and decide not to bother in the first place.
So ultimately the best thing one can do when faced with this situation is write more fan fiction that deals with women in Middle-earth, and encourage others to write more. Which reminds me that I need to keep working on my own fic…
No one *has* to respect Tolkien or any one else.
I can see Dreamflower’s confusion though. If one doesn’t respect the author and his/her works, then why would one choose to read their books, write fan fic about their characters or wonder what else might have happened in their world that the author didn’t tell us? Do I respect Tolkien? Well, I never knew the man, so I couldn’t say. Do I respect his imagination? Yes. It’s because of that respect for the world he created that I come back to the books and want to further explore the relationships that he gave us. If I didn’t respect him for that, I hardly would have spent so many years exploring that world, either through my own writing or that of others.
On the other hand, PJ royally pissed me off with some of his changes when making the movies. I first got into fan fic by writing parodies of the movie scripts. It was my way to both poke fun at PJ and those changes and to vent my frustration in a way that didn’t end with me mailing cherry bombs to PJ’s house. Of course, I also haven’t watched the movies since ROTK EE came out, and I never bothered to finish the parodies. No respect = no interest in remaining in that world of imagination.
As far as what’s canon and what isn’t, if you want to get really nitpicky – everything in fan fic is AU, whether it’s slash, gen, het, gapfiller, comedy, drama, thriller, mystery, crossover, what have you. How “canon”-like or “AU” a fan fic is perceived to be is a matter of degrees. If you were to put it on a scale of 1-10, 1 being as close to canon as possible and 10 being extreme AUs (which I personally consider to be those fics in which the only similarities to LOTR are the characters’ names and possibly their race), then some people like to stay on the 1 side of the scale, others like to play in the middle and still others prefer to tip the scale entirely. And it’s all good. That’s what makes fandom so much fun.
I’m very easy going with my reading of fan fic. I’ve read torture!fic, slash, gen, crack!fic, wild AUs, heck, even the rare Mary Sue back in the day when all I knew was FFN. I’ve ready stories from all over the scale and back again, and the ones I’ve enjoyed are the ones that are thought-out and well-written, no matter where on the scale they fell.
I’m not so easy going when it comes to my writing. Other than one AU, I try to stay as close to “canon” as I can. The Professor said Merry and Estella get married, so I have Merry and Estella get married – though I give them other relationships beforehand; I mean, how often do people marry their first loves? The Professor never had Aragorn torture Frodo, so I don’t put hobbit!torture in my fics. The Professor never wrote a F/S sex scene, so I don’t have them in a sexual relationship. (Though Lbilover, genius that she is, did write a F/S sex scene using only the Professor’s words! Best. Fic. EVER!)
On the other hand, though hobbits are cheerful and fun-loving, and we know Bilbo and Frodo pulled their share of trouble, Tolkien never wrote a Merry-and-Pippin-play-a-prank scene. But I would be lost without my prank wars! That part of fanon can be defended because of the above, but is it “canon”? Who knows?
I can certainly appreciate the draw of writing AUs, and particularly disturbing AUs. I’ve done a few of my own, after all, particularly with “An Enemy Made” and “Angainor,” in both of which Sam appears to act totally out of character. In the former he does what he does out of the depth of his (filial) love for Frodo Baggins; the motivation is similar in the second, but this time it is because his love for Frodo has become almost hopelessly distorted.
Most of the Frodo/Sam stories I’ve read, however, have not been exploring the depths of love between these two characters; instead they are simply focused on a possible sexual bond between them that is to the point of being obsessive in nature, and the stories themselves sink to the level of being voyeuristic. So, not only are they relatively banal, they are b o r i n g.
There have only been a few whose slash stories in which individuals such as Frodo and Sam or Aragorn and any other guy become lovers that have been able to keep me interested enough to finish the story, most notably Vistula the Dunadan, Baylor, and Claudia. Claudia has been the ONLY one whose mpreg story I’ve read has given me a good reason to believe that Frodo could indeed become pregnant; she’s also given me one story in which I could believe that Frodo most reluctantly married an equally reluctant Aragorn; and one in which I can appreciate Frodo and Halbarad having a committed relationship. Now, THAT takes talent.
What disturbed me on Tuesday was that of the–what? twenty? offerings given in the Baggins Birthday Bash, only eight were NOT Frodo/Sam slash, and of those that were slash only ONE managed to be so lyrical in nature it got past my automatic F/S dislike factor. The rest were mundane to the point of yawning, obligatory, and predictable.
As I said on the list, Dawn, your story is beyond being slash–it is focused on a serious issue–how those who are born with homosexual tendencies too often find themselves facing a world that is antagonistic toward their situation, and that somehow is convinced that they chose to be gay and therefore could just as easily choose to be straight again. If only, as I’m certain your sister has explained to you. I’ve not yet written any Tolkien fanfiction in which there are healthy m/m or w/w couples, and I don’t know if I would. Maybe someday. I HAVE indicated in several stories that there are such couples within Middle Earth, and I have certainly NOT indicated I condemn such couples, as I DON’T. In my own personal, original world I started constructing when I was eight there are a few gay couples, and they are fully integrated into their society when in the primary place to which these folk belong; but when they go out into the wider world they must and do deal with the prejudices of those they face. I haven’t read your story yet, Dawn, but intend to do so in time.
I usually recuse myself from voting on slash stories on HASA, particularly Frodo/Sam stories or Aragorn/other guys stories, because I recognize that with my personal distaste for most such stories I would not be an objective judge of their worth; I prefer that others who don’t mind or who like the genre check them out as they would probably do better than I in judging their worth.
One last thing–I’m just not into tales that are full of graphical sex, no matter whether m/m, w/w, or m/w. I prefer to focus on the emotional aspect of the relationship rather than the physical, as I agree with one of my psych profs who noted that the most erotic zone in most people is their imagination–I want to let my imagination fill in the blanks. I simply have never found the “throbbing member” type of story to be particularly exciting or stimulating no matter what their genre, whether in or out of fanfiction. I hope this explains why I tend to allow those moments to remain private to my couples when they happen, allowing the readers to imagine them how they please–or not, if they prefer it.
And I appreciate the dislike several here have expressed about the blatantly “St. Frodo” or “Frodo as a Christ figure” stories, or some in which the friendship of Sam and Frodo is exaggerated to the point it is almost slash without having the guts to be true slash. One writer whose works I do read and review most of the time is that sort, and I often have to bite my fingers so as not to offend her.
I see, Dreamflower, that you and I agree on the physical details of a romance turning us off rather than on more often than not.
I do believe that most of the Gen-fic writers I have read have done their best to give us strong female characters, and to flesh out the womenfolk that Tolkien merely names and then ignores. I’ve created a number of OFCs who I am certain are not Mary Sues, from maids in the Citadel to wives in the Shire and women among the northern Dunedain and princesses in Harad. “Second Mum” definitely gives us what I hope are excellent looks at what Esmeralda and Menegilda Brandybuck might have been like; I’ve tried my best to make my version of Tolkien’s world in which those strong male characters live one in which strong females live as well.
And I try to make my version of Denethor as a younger man one who is more likeable than he later became, but who still has in him clear traces of the envy and suspicion that Tolkien indicates were there, as well as a tendency to be negatively controlling at times toward his sons.
I do not intend to offend others, and I hope that others appreciate what I am trying to say. I don’t feel comfortable reading most homosexual visions of many of Tolkien’s characters, and most particularly those pairings where one or both are shown to have been committed emotionally to someone else.
Now, I CAN imagine Frodo and Sam, during the quest, during the times Frodo was stronger and when they were either facing a particularly stressful situation or, even more likely, just when such stress has finally been relieved, finding themselves knowing a sexual moment between the two of them; but as a long-term, ongoing thing–no. Such reactions are not uncommon in response to particularly stressful situations–it helps to relieve physical tension at the same time it tends to reaffirm the participants’ dedication to continuing to live life as fully as they can. But I simply find myself shaking my head at the idea of either of them hanging onto such a relationship as a long-term commitment, and particularly when Sam returned to immediately seek out Rosie, and once they married they continued to enjoy a full sexual relationship for so long into their long marriage–thirteen children in twenty-three years is a good indicator that they found one another to be fully sexually compatible, after all!
Anyway–the wireless connection at work has been iffy at work yesterday and today; I’ve written comments twice before only to lose them when I’ve found the connection cut out on me, so finally here it is. And it’s been fascinating to see what folks have written in the last two days!
Gamgeefest said: I can see Dreamflower’s confusion though. If one doesn’t respect the author and his/her works, then why would one choose to read their books, write fan fic about their characters or wonder what else might have happened in their world that the author didn’t tell us?
Egg-Zactly! Why bother with reading or writing fanfic if you don’t love the source material? It confuses me no end.
Gamgeefest also said: Tolkien never wrote a Merry-and-Pippin-play-a-prank scene.
No, but he did have Pippin play a little joke on Sam during “Three’s Company”. *grin*
Celeritas said: So ultimately the best thing one can do when faced with this situation is write more fan fiction that deals with women in Middle-earth, and encourage others to write more.
Yes. And there are several taking part in this very discussion who have done so– if asked off-hand to name one strong and interesting female OFC in LOTR fandom, my first answer would immediately be SurgicalSteel’s Serinde. And if I were asked to name more, your Kira would also make the short list.
And there are several authors who have made canon female characters who had only short appearances, or were maybe only names in the Appendices, into very strong characters.
I am all about encouraging other writers– new or established. I like to read LOTR fanfic, and if no new writers come along to keep the stories going, my pool of new reading material will soon dry up. And I do believe encouraging people to write the stories I like to read is the best way to get some.
But in forums like this, it is not untoward to mention one’s DISlikes– that is, after all what started the discussion in the first place.
Larner said: What disturbed me on Tuesday was that of the–what? twenty? offerings given in the Baggins Birthday Bash, only eight were NOT Frodo/Sam slash, and of those that were slash only ONE managed to be so lyrical in nature it got past my automatic F/S dislike factor.
I knew what you meant. And yet with as you said *eight* such stories– that’s more than a third of them gen stories, which actually was in improvement over previous years. So the solution as I see it is to encourage more gen writers to take part.
Larner also said: And I appreciate the dislike several here have expressed about the blatantly “St. Frodo” or “Frodo as a Christ figure” stories, or some in which the friendship of Sam and Frodo is exaggerated to the point it is almost slash without having the guts to be true slash. One writer whose works I do read and review most of the time is that sort, and I often have to bite my fingers so as not to offend her.
I believe we both are thinking of the same person. It’s one thing to hint at the spiritual symbolism inherent in Frodo’s character (and in many ways he was a “Christ-figure” as were Aragorn and Gandalf, and to a lesser degree, some of the other characters.) It’s another to be very blatant about it, to the point of annoying even those who might otherwise agree with an interpretation.
I see, Dreamflower, that you and I agree on the physical details of a romance turning us off rather than on more often than not
Yes, but it’s more than just squick or distaste for TMI. I honestly believe in most cases, it’s as well to give the characters some privacy. (Perhaps it’s silly to consider the feelings of fictional people, but I do.) And furthermore, I find it far more interesting and amusing to see things *hinted at*, rather than spoken of openly, and to see just how many polite euphemisms can be used to make the hints.
I recently wrote a fic about a pre-marital encounter between two hobbits resulting in an unwed pregnancy, and the resultant “shotgun wedding”. I made the conscious decision to not once directly refer to either the sexual encounter or its results, using nothing but innuendo and euphemisms, which I think would have been a reflection of the parochial nature of Shire gossip. It was this avoidance of actually *saying* anything that gave the story its humor, and it was a lot of fun trying to think of ways to convey my meaning *without* saying anything explicit.
I have a few mild euphemisms I use that those who are familiar with my stories know– and I think I do fairly well with the hints.
There are a few authors whose “smut” is readable for me, and actually make me like it– but they tend to dwell more on the emotional reactions of the participants rather than the technical details of “Fit Tab A into Slot B” sort of thing, which for me just simply doesn’t click.
Thank you again, everyone, for being here. Larner, I’m glad you could stop by.
Though I’m sorry to hear about your tech problems … having lost long comments before too, I usually write them in WordPad now unless I’m at home and able to monitor that the wireless connection is actually working!
GamgeeFest: To your notion of respect for the original author–yes! I don’t think that JRRT and I would have gotten along well in real life at all. As far as some of his viewpoints go, I do not respect them or him for holding them. His views on women, for example–I cannot respect someone who discounts equal rights for more than half of the world’s population … and the half that includes me!
From Letter #53 to Christopher Tolkien:
Durned women’s lib and all that! Making the world small and flat and dull for their menfolk! I cannot respect that notion and I’ll be perfectly honest that it certainly colors my view of the mind behind it.
But as far as what he accomplished in his fiction–yes, I can respect that! I don’t always agree with what I read between the lines–the notion that one should obey Authority because it is Authority is deeply troubling to me, for example–but what JRRT has given us to chew over is certainly monumental and worthy of my respect.
Celeritas: I think it may be, in part, the communities we’re part of. I can say that I’ve certainly picked up on the “women are icky!” sentiment in certain fannish circles, whether overtly stated (which I think I recall from a comment on a past post, Pink Siamese, that someone did in fact say just that: “Girls are icky!”?) or implied. For example, I recently read a story where the author did introduce an OFC into the mix … with her sole function to look stupid and to be routinely humiliated, consistent with the worst stereotypes of women (i.e., women who enjoy sex are whores; pretty little heads have no business in men’s affairs of business and politics and will bring ruin every time [and that ruin will usually compound into grave consequences for civilization as a whole, cf Eve]). What’s more, no one challenged the characterization or what lay behind it. Most people seemed to find it funny.
On Mary Sues, you said,
Then there is a distinct phobia among newer writers that their OFC is going to be labeled as a Mary Sue, especially if she is the protagonist of a story. Rather than making sure that their OFC is interesting and dynamic (which is a great Sue-accusation-repellent) they can quail and decide not to bother in the first place.
I have written in the past and have meant to research more into whether the concept of “Mary Sue” isn’t a little misogynist in itself. That they are often self-insert constructions made by young women and showing themselves “having it all”–physical prowess, magical powers, good looks, romance, adventure, and a glittery unicorn–or in an equal role to the male characters that, as you note, dominate JRRT’s fiction (10th-walker stories, for example), and that they are so discouraged by people who don’t need to read the young woman’s self-indulgent fantasy if they do not want to makes me wonder what lies behind the overwhelming scorn heaped upon a harmless (even empowering?) fantasy. I’m not saying that Mary Sues are feminist icons, but I get antsy at the notion that young women should be discouraged from writing female characters or envisioning themselves as part of the stories that they love.
But I’m off on a tangent … my point was to say that I agree that the “Mary Sue phobia” discourages the construction of OFCs. Though I think that OFCs are held to extra scrutiny in some corners of fandom, and the shrieky “criticism” that a writer who fails to construct the perfect OFC must endure is certainly off-putting of legitimate–though imperfect–attempts.
For example, in my novel Another Man’s Cage, I have an OFC love interest for Maedhros who is, if anything, the anti-Mary Sue. She’s not particularly beautiful, she’s a metalsmith, and she comes to the story with romantic and emotional baggage … which she handles with far less angst than Maedhros, I should add.
She isn’t the best character because she was shaped, in part, to avoid a label of “Mary Sue” and I was a much less skilled writer five years ago than I am now. But her character received the most criticism out of anything in that story, and I remember a particularly memorable review on ff.net where she was labeled a whore for consensual sexual activity with Maedhros while his role was unmentioned. And, as they say, it takes two to tango. So yes, I definitely think that there is misogynism in fandom.
Larner: I don’t think that anyone should have to justify or apologize for reading/writing what she likes to read or write. As the saying goes, there’s no accounting for taste, and so long as I defend the rights of authors to write F/S if they want, then I will equally defend your right not to read them!
I also understand how particular interpretations/fanons can inspire a sort of blind loathing. I feel that way about evil!Feanor and wimpy!Maglor stories and especially about stories where Maedhros threatens to kill Elrond and Elros at Sirion. I add the caveat that these can be done well, but they more often to me feel like the author is following the herd: Because everyone before her has decided that Feanor was evil and Maglor was a wimp and Maedhros tried to kill E&E at Sirion then that road is also taken without much consideration given to why the characters are behaving in that way. It’s just so much more fun to write about a big, bad Feanorian threatening toddlers at swordpoint than to give too much thought to what might have brought him to that low. When I find these stories, I can very rarely find anything nice to say to the author, so I say nothing and silently seethe.
So I imagine that finding the majority of stories in the birthday bash were F/S to being the equivalent for me of, when SWG ran Seven in ‘07 to honor fiction and artwork about the Feanorians, having more than half of the submissions concern Maedhros holding E&E at swordpoint! I can understand that frustration.
I do have some bones of contention with the anti-slash sentiment, though, and I hope you’ll know that this is meant broadly and not directed at you specifically.
First is that, while I do firmly believe that each person should read and write what brings her joy and should not be made to answer for those choices, my empathy toward fans who prefer to avoid slash wears thin when they feel the need to constantly parade their dislike of slash. For one, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the notion of expressing my fannish identity in terms of negatives–what I don’t like, what I won’t read, and so on–unless it is relevant to the circumstances. (Like this discussion here.) So whenever I read a profile on an archive or a newcomer introduces herself on a group and right there at the fore is, “I like this and that and I don’t read slash,” then I wonder: What is the need for that? I can say that when I do write slash, I tend to default to the assumption that people won’t read it. At least among the slash writers I know, that seems to be their outlook as well. At least two Silm slash stories took First Place in the MEFAs last year, and I know that both authors were delighted that, even though the stories were slash, they got enough readers much less reviews/votes to surmount the gen and het stories they were up against. They assumed from the get-go that the nominations–however flattering–were a lost cause. So I don’t get the impression that people need to stem the tide of slash stories that would otherwise be flooding them if they didn’t make clear up front that they prefer not to read it.
Which makes me wonder at the motive behind it. As a bi-creative author–as I think was the termed coined on-list?–I am familiar with choosing homes for a variety of stories: gen (mostly), het, and slash. And of the three, there is the most “institutionalized” hostility against slash. For example, if I define a “major Tolkien archive” as one that has archived thousands of stories over several years, there are four, not counting ff.net: HASA, OSA, SoA, and LotRFF. Of those, two expressly forbid slash. Neither site provides a definition (SoA’s links to definitions both being broken), so I will assume that my By the Light of Roses* would be just as unacceptable as F/S and just as unacceptable as a story where an unmarried, unattached character “just happens to be gay” or there is an OC gay couple in the mix.
*I’m going to pretend, for the sake of the discussion, that Roses does not violate any of the other site guidelines.
When I’m thinking about where to post my fiction, that half of the big well-known archives won’t take my work is pretty startling and, also, pretty discouraging. So I have to say that when I put my work up on what playgrounds remain available to me (and, to be fair, most of the small archives with which I’m familiar welcome all three subgenres) and I am met by still more “I don’t get why you have to do this” or “Why are you writing this?” or “I don’t like this kind of story,” then I want to knock my head on a wall. I want to say to people, “You have two big archives and several smaller ones where you’ll never see a story like this–what does it take to make you content to let me write what I enjoy?” No other subgenre (except Mary Sue, if one considers that a subgenre) is subject to so much institutionalized dislike.
Again, I find myself questioning the motives behind this. The typical response I get when I ask people why they oppose slash is, “It’s a canon issue for me.” And I’m not saying that, for some, it really is not a canon issue or an issue of simple preference. (”I can’t fit F/S into my vision of M-e. I don’t want to read it.” Fair enough.) But homosexuality can be defended using canon, so all same-sex pairings are not uncanonical. And slash is hardly the only “canon issue”; in fact, opening up the slash can of worms often brings forth the defense that “I dislike a lot of uncanonical things!” For example, I was recently told by someone who’d spoken out against slash that she also dislikes and avoids all noncanonical pairings, second marriages, divorce, and premarital sex. So clearly it wasn’t anything about slash specifically! But my point to her was that she didn’t choose to speak out against noncanonical pairings, second marriages, divorce, or premarital sex. She spoke out against slash.
Why? What makes slash so special to deserve its own special outcry all of the time?
I have a few theories. One–which I already put forth in a reply to Dreamflower–is that slash is much more prevalent than Eowyn/Aragorn stories (for example) or stories concerning the other topics. However, I’m not sure that this holds true for premarital sex. Yet one doesn’t see a huge outcry against premarital sex in stories, and I’ve yet to see anyone claim that “I don’t read anything with premarital sex in it.” Premarital sex isn’t even expressly banned on SoA, though I don’t read or post there and so can’t say whether it is in fact allowed. I’m sure it’s welcomed on OSA.
Another reason might be that the subculture of Tolkien fan-writing makes a dislike or disdain of slash more normative than a dislike or disdain of other types of fiction or textual interpretations. For one, again, it is institutionalized. As a newcomer to a community, that two big websites smash the banhammer first and hardest upon slash immediately marginalizes and delegitimizes those stories. It becomes a matter of fitting in: of proving one’s tastes to fall within the confines of acceptability, of espousing a mainstream viewpoint that certain kinds of fiction are less acceptable than others. It rather reminds me of how fervently young authors on ff.net often affirm of their stories that “This is not a Mary Sue!” No one has said that it is but, with that statement, they show that they’re not only savvy enough to be aware of fandom norms but they agree and conform to those norms. It is a plea to not only “read my work” but “like me … I think like you.”
The problem here, I think, is that when public dislike and disdain moves beyond being institutionalized, it has even worse of a stifling effect. It is easy to rail against big entities that one knows one can never change. I consider it the fannish version of hating on The Man.
When I came into fandom, it was almost necessary to loathe at least one of the major archives.
As an author, that OSA won’t accept Roses is annoying but not hurtful. So I vote with my feet; I don’t post any of my work anymore with OSA. As an author, to hear fellow authors whom I respect as peers and sometimes like as friends condemn the same story as disrespectful or non-canonical or perverse is hurtful. I have asked none of them to read the story and respect their right not to. I wonder, then, why my chosen subject and subgenre is so often set up for target practice.
Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular and least of all you, Larner. I’m just attempting to show from the PoV of a sometimes-slash author how such comments come across.
Finally, there is the Oliphaunt in the room: homophobia. My personal feelings are this:
Preferring not to read slash is not necessarily indicative of homophobia. Saying, as many have here, that they have no problem with homosexuality in Tolkien stories but just can’t believe in certain pairings for whatever reason, to me, comes down to “canon” and preference, not homophobia.
Saying that “I don’t think there was homosexuality in Middle-earth and, therefore, I don’t read slash” and actually backing that up with support from the texts … well, I don’t think it’s possible, but I’m always open to being convinced. Again, this comes down to a matter of “canon” and interpretation, not homophobia.
Saying that, “I don’t have any proof but I don’t think that there is homosexuality in Middle-earth,” in my opinion, is more indicative of the fact that we live in a heteronormative society than it is that the person saying it is necessarily homophobic.
Saying that “I don’t want to read anything with gay characters” (not non-canonical pairings, not explicit sex–gay characters) or “slash disgraces Tolkien’s beautiful world” … most likely, I think that there is homophobia behind that.
I say most likely because we all say stupid and thoughtless things at times; I have certainly said things that I wish I could take back. I hesitate to label anyone but I do think that the motives behind statements like these are worthy of and open to some consideration.
Do I think that homophobia is at work in some of the outcry against slash? Abso-friggin-lutely. Aside from the occasional bone-headed things that I’ve seen people say in public (like “slash has no place in Tolkien’s beautiful world!” … I don’t know, did that person miss the whole “torturing Elves into Orcs” subplot in that “beautiful world”?), the very notion that stories as vastly different as m/m PWP, a story looking at the sociopolitical implications of living as a homosexual in Middle-earth, and stories where the protagonist just happens to live next door to the happy OC couple that just happens to be gay all get lumped together as “slash” is problematic to me. It says that slash = homosexuality = deviant sexual behavior. There is no attempt to distinguish between those stories written for titillation from stories written to look at social/cultural questions from stories where the characters accurately represent the full range of human behaviors. “Gay” must always equal “sex,” and “gay” must always be the defining point of a character’s identity rather than a single trait in a melange. Imagine if the same standards were applied to het and all non-canonical het was then banned. Simply inventing an OFC wife for Maedhros would be the same as writing graphic BDSM Sauron/Celebrian torture fic. That’s ridiculous and that it is so widely accepted and unquestioned for same-sex couples is troubling.
And, of course, fandom doesn’t exist in a vacuum. In Western civilization, equal rights for GLB&T individuals are the civil rights issue of our day.
I can say that when a person claims, without provocation, “I don’t like/read slash,” while I do not label that person from that statement alone, my guard does go up. I become wary. The arguments against slash bear too close a resemblance to the rhetoric against homosexuality in the real world. It is disgraceful and deviant; it is something that can be ignored (because it is a choice); it is not a necessary part of our world; it is always about sexual gratification rather than love and family; it is a singular criterion that defines a person or a story above all other criteria (gay/straight, slash/not slash) and as a primary point of judgment thereafter.
And homophobia in the argument against slash remains an Oliphaunt in the room. No one really wants to talk about it, at least not with people who share different views than they do. Which is why I hope, now that I’ve written half a dissertation on the subject, I hope some others will chime in with their thoughts on the matter.
Dreamflower: “So the solution as I see it is to encourage more gen writers to take part.”
Yes! Exactly! This gets back to my earlier post about constructive versus destructive ways of getting more of the stories that one wants. I’ve often noticed on the SWG that, when we get an enthusiastic newcomer, usually a few of her friends follow her over. And since they tend to like and write the same kinds of stories, then we get new subgenres or interpretations popping up all of the time with the result that other members who maybe didn’t give much thought to a particular type of story before might also find their horizons broadened.
Or I look at Back to Middle-earth Month when LotR Genfic joined with us for that. Suddenly, instead of being 90% Silmfic, there was a much broader representation. And I think a few of our authors who write both Silm and LotR felt freer to stretch their wings as a result.
In fact, without knowing much about the birthday bash, I wonder if that’s the reason behind all of the F/S, if maybe a handful of F/S shippers found the event fun and encouraged their friends to join in. If that’s the case, it’s encouraging because that works for all kinds of stories without diminishing what others have to offer.
I’m showing myself as a pie-eyed optimist, yes, I know! 8^)
Egg-Zactly! Why bother with reading or writing fanfic if you don’t love the source material? It confuses me no end.
Who is to say that they do not love the works of Tolkien? I think that this assumption goes to far. We all have different reasons to write and read fanfic, and the same amount of time or what one feels they should invest in it. Some spent a lot of time researching (I am one of those, the amount of I spent in going through the books vs the actual time to write is most certainly not balanced). If people want to write fanfic just barely based on watching the movies or after one read of the books: let them. I think with this we have to be careful that we do not expect of others that they are just as invested in the works as we are.
But in forums like this, it is not untoward to mention one’s DISlikes– that is, after all what started the discussion in the first place.
No, I can see that, but words like cheapening, lifting out writers who write slash.. I am sorry, but that is something that I do take issue against. It is singling out a group of writers and I don’t think that this was intended, but that did cause a storm of reactions. It might be a matter of wordening or phrasing things differently, but still. Especially when you do frustrated, it might be good to bin the first thoughts that come to mind, take a break, take a deep breath and think of the other side. After all behind the eight stories that have been deemed as a lesser quality is a writer who might have poured their heart & soul into writing the piece of fiction.
There are a few authors whose “smut” is readable for me, and actually make me like it– but they tend to dwell more on the emotional reactions of the participants rather than the technical details of “Fit Tab A into Slot B” sort of thing, which for me just simply doesn’t click.
Ah Ikea Erotica
Hi Dawn!
With a little free time before I go to work, I thought I’d comment on just one aspect of your comments– all of which are very thought-provoking.
So whenever I read a profile on an archive or a newcomer introduces herself on a group and right there at the fore is, “I like this and that and I don’t read slash,” then I wonder: What is the need for that?
Well, there is another Oliphaunt in the room, and it involves the intrusiveness of RL into our online lives. First of all, many of the new fic-writers are young and underage and may have rather strait-laced parents, while others are middle-aged and employed, perhaps by rather strait-laced employers. Given the knowledge that there are no secrets on “teh interwebs”, it’s perhaps a proactive strike against discovery of one’s hobbit by RL family, friends or co-workers.
Fanfic as a whole tends to fly under the radar of most of those who do not participate actively in online fandom. And for those who *do* know about its existence, they do NOT understand the wide diversity of interests represented. A look at many of the links provided weekly at the Fanthropology LJ community to mainstream media mentions of fanfic shows that most of them are still condescending and disapproving, and that a great many people who ought to know better believe that ALL fanfic is porn and slash.
I have people on my flist who are very wary of leaving any sort of clue to their RL identities. No one who knows them in RL is welcome to know of their online lives, that they write fanfic at all, much less that they read or write anything that is in the least out of “normal”. They truly fear the repercussions should family or co-workers discover their hobby.
I don’t think that the mere fervid protest “I don’t read or write slash” will actually serve as much protection to someone whose identity gets Googled by a determined RL acquaintance– but it does perhaps give them an illusion of protection.
Personally, I am the opposite– I do not hide my fannish interests at all, and am far more like the proud parent who opens the wallet with a dozen pics of the kids– I will push my fic and stories on anyone I meet in RL who makes the mistake of showing even a modicum of interest, and I have noticed eyes glazing over when I start discussing hobbit family trees to near strangers…
But that’s another topic altogether.
I’ll be back after work to see what else is going on here– I meant to write some fic this morning, but this is a lot more interesting…
it’s perhaps a proactive strike against discovery of one’s hobbit by RL family, friends or co-workers.
*facepalm* I MEANT “hobby”. Really.
*blushes*
@Dawn: Darn you, don’t link to TV Tropes! Darth Fingon made mention of it on the Lizard Council a couple of days ago and it’s far too easy to get sucked in and not leave the site for like ten hours!
More seriously, in ‘The King’s Surgeon,’ I have a gay couple who just sort of happen to be around – my OFC’s brother and the Warden of the Houses of Healing. For SoA, I edited that relationship heavily (almost to the point of unrecognizability), and got away with it for the better part of two years. The site owner may have grown stricter about that subjest since my summary bannination, though.
@Dreamflower: Heee. *makes heretic handsignal* The funny thing is? For the material that people would call ‘heretical,’ I have obscure bits of canon to back myself up.
And FWIW, for the curious, I submit to you the origin of the term ‘Mary Sue:’
A Trekkie’s Tale.
I can say that when a person claims, without provocation, “I don’t like/read slash,” while I do not label that person from that statement alone, my guard does go up. I become wary.
Something that I’ve found, being involved all over in the fandom, is that there are some gen and het writers that I’ve encountered who believe that slash means ‘this story will undoubtedly have m/m NC17 action going on’. The concept of G-rated slash doesn’t compute.
A few years back, for a little while, some of the Elf groups were using a tag that I came up with to try to give things a little more definition — NSS (non-sexual slash). Just as a male/female canon pair will act cozy and differently even in a gen story than they would with other characters, so, too will a m/m or f/f pair act differently towards their partner than they will towards other characters. (There was a NSH that got used a few times, too, and then the fandom size decreased, the amount of mixed groups seemed to go by the wayside, and NSS and NSH didn’t have as much usability in the smaller more defined groups).
However, I will admit, if someone makes a point to mention that they won’t read slash (or, for that matter, that they won’t read het) in their initial intro, it does put me on guard a little to make sure I won’t be saying things to offend them.
And a little backpedaling to make a clarification on the ‘lesbian couples are cute’ remark… it’s difficult to find the right wording, exactly… I guess the idea is, couples in love in general are cute, no matter who they are… but, I’m more inclined to want a live journal icon of Galadriel & Celeborn snuggling or of Maedhros and Fingon snuggling than I would be of wanting to have an icon of… Aredhel & Luthien snuggling. But, they’d all be cute, no matter who is snuggling who. I’d just be more inclined to want to see post-snuggling action of the first two pairs, while certain guys I’m related to would be more inclined to want to watch the post-snuggling of couples one and three.
Guess I never thought that thinking someone or something was cute/nice/fantabulous/etc was a bad thing…
@SurgicalSteel That was me, linking to Tv tropes, not Dawn.. sorry. I do have a bookmark to a better link to that somewhere, but with two young kids wanting mommy time, I lacked of time.
*coughs*
It is fun though, there was another thing shared by lady Elleth recently also coming from TV tropes regarding the Silmarillion and yeah, I will shamefully admit that I spent waaaay to much hours on following the links in that article. Let alone giggling too much when I read (and I do write this character a lot):
Curufin. When your evil scheme gets derailed by your brother’s talking dog before it even gets off the ground, you’re probably not as awesome as you think you are.
Was that what Darth Fingon was referring too?
@Pink Siamese: Mpreg is misogynist?
Okay, not something I see at all, but fair enough.
I do have to say that “misogyny” seems to get tossed around a bit too freely. It’s “hatred of women”, which I associate with things like little girls getting acid thrown in their faces for trying to go to school. I think it cheapens the strength of the word to apply it to people who simply like to write male characters or mpreg. Authors may be sexist in how they are portraying female characters, but I really doubt there are many real cases of “hatred of women” in slash or mpreg (which is a separate issue than hating an individual female character). My two cents.
Nobody writes stories about lesbian couples spontaneously conceiving. I think if mpreg wasn’t a feminist issue, there would be tons of femmeslash everywhere and lots of spontaneous lesbian conception (which you’ll notice doesn’t have a catchy abbreviation like “mpreg”).
I think that is fandom-specific. If you want a lot of strong female characters, I think Tolkien-verse is pretty much the last place to look. (I think Tom Clancy novels have more women than Tolkien!) I have a lot of really great female characters to choose from in the DC Universe and I use them all the time. In that fandom there is female gen-fic, femslash, and I’ve seen a couple fpregs (<– the catchy abbreviation used in many fandoms for lesbian conception
). And talking about getting rid of partners to free up a character — people are far more likely to get rid of Green Arrow (male) to free up Black Canary (female) than the other way around! 
And as Dreamflower pointed out, I think it’s more disposing of extraneous characters in general rather than “misogyny”. In my first fic I killed off Faramir in a really lame way to free up Eowyn. Misandry? Nope, I really do love the guy and even like Eowyn/Faramir. I was just immature as a writer and took the easy way out. I killed off Estella, too, to free up Merry. I cried over her, because she had become my favorite character (and it probably ended up being some sort of therapy over losing my mom a couple months before as well). But I certainly didn’t do it out of “OMG I hate these characters!”, just that I needed some way to get Merry and Eowyn back together when they had really strong, loving marriages with other people, and making them widow/widower was the only way I could see to resolve that. There are some days I regret that and think that maybe I could have told the story if I’d left them married to Faramir and Estella, but … c’est la vie. I wasn’t strong enough as a writer to think that far ahead at that time.
But there isn’t, which tells me that lots of women deep down have some kind of aversion to writing about other women, even in nonsexual situations.
Femslash Today is multifandom. Femgenficathon is a yearly multifandom female gen-fic challenge. FPREG is a comm for … fpreg! I could point you to individual writers of female characters, but they’d all be DC Comics stories.
But those comms will lead you to “female character friendly” authors of whatever fandoms tickle your fancy.
If there is a lack of female characters (or whatever is your favorite subject) in your fandom, do something about it. When I started writing Hal/Kyle, I was the only one. So I posted stories at comic fic comms, got some readers interested, then created a comm for the pairing to try to grow interest and get more writers. I’ve got about 50 members now (though it’s been slow this summer, along with the rest of comics fandom). If you want more female characters, start by putting up some challenges. Sometimes authors just get stuck in a rut with their OTP or favorite characters (I know I do) and a challenge can get them to try something new. Encourage people to participate in Femgenficathon. Run a regular “girls only” drabbling session on IM and then post them somewhere. Create and/or participate in a community for your favorite female character (I know someone who runs a Wonder Woman community on LJ). Get out there and Google around for new archives/forums/blogs or even new fandoms — if you’re always in the same places reading the same authors, I think it only follows that selection is going to be limited once everyone settles into their “comfort zones” for writing.
@Zhie
Re: Guess I never thought that thinking someone or something was cute/nice/fantabulous/etc was a bad thing…
The initial post — “Sometimes, two guys in love is hot. Then again, so is a guy and a girl. Two girls in love, that’s more cute than hot to me” came across to me as patronizing to the scenario of two women in love when taken into with the rest. So thanks so much for the clarification! That definitely helps me understand why you used that particular word.
Now as far as “cute” being something “bad,” well yeah, it can be. Let me explain why my hackles were raised when you used the word in that context.
I’m a cranky old broad who may very well be old enough to be your mother. I also spent a good many years in a discipline and career in which I was one of very few women, especially as I moved up the career ladder, bumping my head on glass ceilings constantly. Now when I was younger (in my 20s and to a certain extent in my 30s), I blithely prattled about how I had experienced little sexism in science in spite of working with mostly men. That with the major exception of one of my husband’s professors who — when my husband told him he was not pursuing a masters degree at the university where he matriculated but moving to seek work in the city where I was going to grad school to pursue my doctorate — opined (with me right there) that “it is a waste for a woman to go to grad school.” Nice.
However, that was really the worst and only blatant sexism I had experienced. That is, until I started working in my first Real Job™ after my post-doc. There, I’d hear stuff like “Oh it’s so cute when women get upset about [name something dumb and sexist] that so and so said.” Or when one of the male PhDs had his research assistant (an attractive young woman garbed in a tight dress) come up on stage while giving a seminar on his work, hold the wooden pointer (this was in the Jurassic Era before there were laser pointers) and indicate which part of the data he was discussing. He introduced her as “This is my pointer,” and our head of research (a man) laughed and said “That’s some cute pointer all right!” Most of the other guys laughed although some uncomfortably, and the other two female PhDs and I (3 of us out of 70 senior scientists) looked at each other with a major WTF? Keep in mind this was a good while back when there was a lot of hesitation in complaining about such stuff for fear of recrimination.
So this sexism and the frequent use of the word “cute” associated with it were institutionalized. It got worse, culminating in a truly amazing incident (and I was one of 18 women involved) that got the head of research who followed the previous guy (who retired) in such hot water that he turned in his resignation.
So “cute” here was not so “fantabulous.”
Fortunately, I moved on to another company which also had institutionalized sexism but at least “cute pointers” weren’t operative. This company was in Cambridge MA, and we also lived in that city. Many of my mom-friends at my kids school were (still are!) same sex couples. They were also at the vanguard of those pushing for normalization of marriage laws. The struggle that these women had experienced to be recognized (not to mention navigating a laregly heterosexual world although Cambridge is a better place than many for that) was anything but “cute.” Now one couple went to the same hair salon that I did. One day, when I went in for my appointment, there was a camera crew there. My friends were being filmed getting their hair fixed for their upcoming wedding! The Massachusetts Supreme Court had overturned the discriminatory law and now they — and many others — were free to marry. My friends were among the first to marry in the state. I was — and am — so proud of them. Now I’ll grant you that their coifs were cute
, but their love? Sorry, but “cute” — which is great for other circumstances and such — is a word for that diminishes the love and the struggle these two women and many like them experienced and continue to experience. That said, I understand now how you were applying the word and that it was without ill-intent.
However, one must keep in mind that words have power and the above is an example. Sometimes, they can trigger an intent one did not mean or they can spur more dialog.
So that brings me back on-topic.
Use of “words of power is exactly what is being discussed here on the Heretic Loremaster. Tacking on phrases like “slash diminishes Tolkien” or “slash degrades canon” and other qualifiers adds potency to a statement of preference. And to echo Dawn, why even state such a preference? If one adds qualifying statements, then own them and realize that others will challenge you.
@Dawn: Sorry I accused you when it was Rhapsy. My bad.
@Rhapsody: Check out the LOTR fanfic recommendation page. Fanfic Recs: Lord of the Rings. I about choked. And then spent like four hours sucked into clicking of links.
Aranel Took says: “I do have to say that “misogyny” seems to get tossed around a bit too freely. It’s “hatred of women”, which I associate with things like little girls getting acid thrown in their faces for trying to go to school. I think it cheapens the strength of the word to apply it to people who simply like to write male characters or mpreg. Authors may be sexist in how they are portraying female characters, but I really doubt there are many real cases of “hatred of women” in slash or mpreg (which is a separate issue than hating an individual female character). My two cents.”
Honestly? I don’t think the word “misogyny” gets tossed around enough. Too many people don’t want to own the fact that misogyny germinates long before the idea of committing violence starts to flower. I’m sick and tired of seeing the marginalization and disempowerment of women minimized, both in real life and in media. People are quick to jump all over negative critique of media, shouting that “it’s not real anyway and I don’t know why you feminist types have to make such a big deal over it,” but the media holds a mirror to society (see some of Dawn’s comments above) and some of what is getting reflected back at us is really fucking sickening. When I see a form of fiction existing in a fandom where there is no intra-universe explanation for it, and that form of fiction involves the disempowerment and marginalization of women by stripping them of their reproductive significance, I smell a wee whiff of misogyny. And yes, I do really mean “hatred of women.” Where do you think hatred of women comes from, anyway? The sky? Muslim countries?
I’m going to stop with this thread for right now, because it’s really pissing me off.
Aranel Took also said: “If there is a lack of female characters (or whatever is your favorite subject) in your fandom, do something about it.”
This is why people who don’t know each other and don’t read each other’s work shouldn’t debate. Nuff said.
@Pande: On the word ‘cute:’ I have an idea what you mean. I had an attending when I was a med student say that he’d be happy to have more cute little things like me go into surgery – that would’ve been in 1992.
In ‘94, when I was applying for surgical residency, I had an interviewer ask me ‘So, what form of birth control are you using? I mean, you’re a cute girl…’ I told him that unless he was asking the male applicants the same question, what he’d just done was illegal.
The surgery residents shared a trailer behind the hospital where we could sleep while on call – with the result being that we all knew a little more about each other than we might’ve liked. One of the male residents used to comment how ‘cute’ it was that we all got more fired up when we were PMSing. Another remarked how ‘cute’ it was that I knew how to play computer games (he didn’t even know how to turn on a damn computer, and I was already online with my 2400 baud modem).
It doesn’t set my teeth on edge as it used to, but yes, 100%, ‘cute’ applied to women in certain contexts has this whole overlay that I don’t think is fully appreciated.
@Steel
Yep. Exactly.
I think that what Aranel says is very important.
In happy, safe discussions of fanfic and media we are too quick to reach for big, bad words. So, please, we need a bit of perspective here!
Mpreg does not marginalise women.
One, there’s really not enough mpreg out there to accomplish that. Two, I’ve never seen one mpreg story written by a man. And three, most mpreg stories are written as comedy or crack!fic. From the mpreg stories I’ve read, I rather feel it’s a very tongue-in-cheek way of getting back at men for all the discomforts that a pregnancy brings with it. FINALLY there’s an option to make men endure at least in fiction what women have to endure in life.
Thus, I feel that mpreg stories are empowering. They make men pay by reversing roles, force them to look at the world with a woman’s eyes and often they will even learn something from that experience.
And seriously, do you honestly believe hatred of women stems from WOMEN writing crack!fic about men suddenly being subject to morning sickness, cravings, water in their legs, and the ordeal of giving birth? Sorry, but I find that more than unrealistic.
Last but not least, I think it’s genderising and frankly, insulting, if you reduce my identity as a woman to my reproductive system. The role and status of women in society have been assigned from the outside for a very long time, and in many societies by men. In recent years I often get the feeling that instead of allowing each woman to find and define her place on her own, we’ve just switched dictators. Now it’s women telling other women how they are supposed to think and feel and how they should arrange their lives, including when they ought to feel insulted and marginalised.
I’m happy there are mpreg stories, actually, I’m planning to write one myself: a serious mpreg drama set in HP universe, where Polyjuice allows a couple to overcome curse-induced infertility issues.
Juno says: “And seriously, do you honestly believe hatred of women stems from WOMEN writing crack!fic about men suddenly being subject to morning sickness, cravings, water in their legs, and the ordeal of giving birth? Sorry, but I find that more than unrealistic.”
That isn’t what I said.
I suggested that it’s reflective of a trend. In other words, that hatred of women already exists (yes, even among women), and that story trends involving the marginalization of women, including but not limited to mpreg, seem to reflect that. M/M slash stories where men are forced into binary gender-based relationship dynamics reflect that, as do M/M stories where canonical female spouses are eliminated or reduced to one-dimensional stereotypes. Of course, a bald-faced “women are yucky”* attitude suggests that too.
This is not to say that everyone who writes M/M slash or mpreg hates women. I’ve read many M/M slash stories and know many M/M slash authors who handle their homosexual character arcs with sensitivity and skill. As for all of this fine mpreg that is floating around out there, I’ll just take your word for it. I’m sure it exists. No, really. I’m sure it does. I’ve never seen it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.
The big picture fractures and becomes blurry when you stop focusing on a demographic and start focusing on individual authors. I am not talking about individual authors. I am talking about trends and demographics, and these are trends that disturb me. I am attempting to explain why they disturb me. That is all.
*The “women are yucky” attitude is a real thing; I found people expressing this opinion in some discussion on metafandom.
Juno also says: “Last but not least, I think it’s genderising and frankly, insulting, if you reduce my identity as a woman to my reproductive system. The role and status of women in society have been assigned from the outside for a very long time, and in many societies by men. In recent years I often get the feeling that instead of allowing each woman to find and define her place on her own, we’ve just switched dictators. Now it’s women telling other women how they are supposed to think and feel and how they should arrange their lives, including when they ought to feel insulted and marginalised.”
Of course it’s insulting. What I want to know is how replacing pregnant women with pregnant men is supposed to be complimentary. Because it “makes men pay”? That’s supposed to be empowering? That really is “switching dictators,” isn’t it? A phrase like “getting back at men for all the discomforts that a pregnancy brings” insults women by suggesting that is doesn’t take two to tango, even if it is written tongue-in cheek. So how exactly is that supposed to be empowering? Concentrating on writing pregnant female characters who aren’t defined solely by their functioning uteri seems more empowering to me than writing mpreg stories to “make men pay.”
Dreamflower: That’s an interesting theory.
And it’s certainly possible that this is the motive underlying some people’s vocal dislike of certain things.
But I have a bit of trouble imagining this as widespread for a few reasons. For one, the term slash is a fandom term; before I was in fandom, slash to me was either what shares the key with the question mark or the guitarist for Guns ‘n’ Roses.
So I’m not sure that “I don’t read/like slash” would really tell a fandom outsider very much … if anything, it might entice that person to look in corners they otherwise wouldn’t consider. I could see it more likely if the person put it in terms that have a negative connotation to a non-fannish audience: “I won’t read/don’t like porn” or somesuch.
The other thing is that it often occurs in a “locked” environment. Public profiles on ff.net are one thing, but I see people doing it just as much in intro posts to locked communities. Granted, as you point out, nothing is truly “private” on teh interwebz, but it is quite a stretch to think that one’s employer would join a members-only fan fiction forum just to check in on an employee. Not impossible, of course–people are pretty nuts and your characterization of “strait-laced” is being nice!
–but I don’t see this as being a widespread concern.
And, you know, I didn’t even notice the hobbit blunder till you noted it!
But it’s given me much joy this afternoon to imagine some teenage girl’s parents finding a Hobbit under her bed and saying, “What sort of strays is she bringing home this time?!”
Steel/Rhapsody: I’m not sure what TV Tropes is. And because I have a lot to do this weekend, I won’t be clicking anytime soon to find out!
Regarding “cute,” it’s not a word that’s been applied to me anytime that I can remember in a demeaning way. However, it has certainly been implied. For those who don’t know, I work as an analyst for a law enforcement agency, i.e. traditional man’s work. I remember moving to a new building once and being taken on a tour, at which point I was told that “I didn’t know that we hired interns!” and “I didn’t know that we hired high-school girls!” I was 26 at the time; I was married and owned a house and my very own car, had a college degree, and had been doing my job quite competently for four years. I did not appreciate the implication that, because I was a young and somewhat attractive woman, then I should be taken any less seriously than the crustiest old cop on the staff.
Not surprisingly, I was routinely mistaken as the secretary in that building too and routinely asked asked about the whereabouts of my male colleagues like, because I’m a woman, I’m supposed to have a homing beacon on anything with a penis lest he lose himself on a too-long coffee break with the boys. Like I have nothing better to do than to monitor who goes where and when he’ll be back because his buddy is too lazy or stupid to dial him on his cell phone to find out where he is.
Not surprisingly, when I got the chance to move back to my little office where I work absolutely and blissfully alone, then I took it.
Regarding mpreg and misogynism, the only thing I have to add is that, yes, women can absolutely behave in a sexist or misogynist manner. The person who dismissed me as a “high school girl” in the comment above? A woman. Most of the people who liked to mistake the “pretty young thing” for the secretary, even after being corrected numerous times by me and by our assistant director as to my actual job title and responsibilities and capabilities? Mostly women. And, it’s important to note, women who worked in law enforcement, just like me, who had probably struggled against many of the same harmful assumptions.
In the U.S., one needs look no further than Ann Coulter and “Dr. Laura” Schlessinger for evidence of how women can indeed behave in a hateful way toward their entire gender.
That isn’t to say that people who write slash or mpreg necessarily, as individuals, hate women; it would be a hot day on the Helcaraxe before I’d lump even my worst enemy in with the likes of Coulter! But, Pink Siamese, I see your point about how the trends in some of these subgenres can at least make one question the motives behind them, even if those motives are unconscious. Or, as I pointed out earlier, OFCs and “Mary Sue.” If I write stories about a flawless Finrod Felagund, I doubt I’ll catch much flak, but if I write stories about a flawless Galadriel? Aredhel? Eru forbid, an OFC?? People will want to murder my character (and maybe me!) Why? Even in terms of discussing the texts, the number of fans I’ve seen say things like “I hate Luthien/Galadriel/Indis” or who strive to put the blame for the downfall of *name your favorite Middle-earth race* squarely on the shoulders of a woman is quite astounding. People will hold Feanor blameless and spit in the faces of Indis and Nerdanel (even Galadriel!) for “causing” him to do what he did. So, yes, I see this fandom as being laced with misogyny as well. For me, the jury’s still out with respect to the gender issues at work with slash and mpreg. I think you all make some valid points, and I’m just enjoying listening to the discussion and thinking on what all you’re saying.
I guess I had more than that “only thing” to add after all.
More on cuteness….
I believe I live in a different world, one that is obviously a lot better than it used to be. My work is in the academic education arena, as a librarian, but my position, as a director, isn’t a typically female role — in fact, I think in the nearly 100 year history of an institute with multiple campuses, I’m only the 4th female to hold one of these positions. And on more than one occasion, people think that our technical aide is ‘the guy in charge’… it’s fun to see people’s faces when he points out to them ‘I work for her’.
Thus far, with the many lesbian couples I know and have known (and I think if I added up all of my friends who identify themselves as gay or lesbian, and then added up all who identify themselves as straight, the numbers are probably equal, if not weighted more heavily to the former than the latter), none of them have smacked me over the head with rolled up newspaper when I told them they were cute or some related word or phrase. Of course, for all I know, they go home and laugh at the silly little straight girl for calling them that. I think I’ll need to run a poll on that on livejournal and see how it is.
But, all I’m seeing is the happiness and the lovingness… the snuggling on the couch and the having fun at a barbeque and so on, because our living room is like some sort of realm of complete and total acceptance, where sexuality doesn’t matter, racism is not a concept, religions are freely talked about and cultures shared, and liberals and conservatives hug and giggle together. I have surrounded myself with some of THE most awesome people in the universe. And, yes, the majority of us come from a time and age — well, the majority of the group was born between 1972 and 1991, with a few boomers who are self-proclaimed hippies in our midst. Which means, the fight to get married for some of them was fought by previous generations, and while they will undoubtedly continue to break down the barriers still up (or in some cases, the barriers that get put back up), the amount of acceptance from their own peer group is (I would assume) far greater than the amount people in years past were getting.
Perhaps part of the reason I don’t seem to personally be so affected by those words which would ruffle the feathers of others is because I have more experience with dealing with two other aspects — my age (earned the Masters when I was 21 and three years later had my directorship; a year after that, a seat on the college council) and my ethnicity (for the record, I can’t just go outside, dance around, and make it rain, though, some people seem to think so and have created numerous jokes related to such actions). But, I’m still laid back enough not to be upset when coworkers call me kiddo (though, admittedly, too many ‘good girl’s in one day — these coming from female coworkers, mind you — will cause the need for a double lap around the pond), or when they suggest I could call upon some animal spirits to make a meeting go faster.
Because… there ARE times I wish I could call upon animal spirits to make meetings go faster….
And… my goal tonight is to write some slash. Something where Erestor calls Glorfindel cute, and gets bopped over the head with a book on male pregnancy. ^_^
Oh a fellow librarian!
I have worked in the academic setting for quite some years (the last years in a medical library), yet I don’t think it quite compares though. This profession has always been more of a woman’s profession and male librarians are more a rarity than anything else. I know for sure they’d think twice before they utter the word ‘cute’ during lunch with his fellow female librarians. Before you ask how do I know: my husband is a librarian as well (used to run the admin staff of a college library, so yeps, management) and he laments quite often that a tad more testosterone might be good as well since many think that the library staff are easily cut in budget and nobody dares to stand up. 
I don’t like none canon pairings be it Legolas/Eomer or Eomer/Arwen.
When I read fanfic, I want to read something that feels it belongs in Tolkien’s world and could almost be a lost chapter or book of his.
I read Tolkien’s original works and fanfic based on them for stories of loyalty,friendship and courage and love(not lust).
I try to respect Tolkien’s Catholic beliefs in the stories I write.
To come across a story where Aragorn is cheating on Arwen,for example, is almost like having a friend slandered, so I don’t read it. part of the reason why I love Aragorn so much is that he is willing to wait so long for the woman of his dreams.
The media and mainstream literature is saturated with sex.I find Tolkien’s world a refreshing change.
What everyone else reads or writes is up to them, but I choose to avoid slash and smutty het stories.Neither do I read MPREG,or anything else which feels OOC.
I think different archives for different tastes is the best way to keep everyone happy.
he laments quite often that a tad more testosterone might be good as well since many think that the library staff are easily cut in budget and nobody dares to stand up.
Yeah, depends on the librarian… I think, behind my back, I’m kind of known as a b—- because I’m pretty vocal when it comes to money issues. I tell my colleagues the only reason I managed to acquire what we have for the places I’ve been at is due to the fact that the powers that be get tired of listening to me after a while, because they know I’m not just going to go away. But, yes, most of the female librarians I know are more than happy to stay in reference or cataloging or collection development, while most of the male librarians I know are in management or on their way there.
I actually planned to be a children’s librarian; my specialization is young adult literature (a place where, to bring the conversation back around, discussion and debate about gay themes came about many times in the few years I spent working in the YA section of a public library).
@Linda: I agree somewhat on the issue of archives. I have no problem with archives specializing in something; obviously, my archive is very specialist!
I must admit, though, that I am very turned off by the negativity some archives use in their posting guidelines, where they seem more about what the archive won’t accept than what it will. This is the same as people who parade about bellowing about what they hate or won’t read rather than focusing on what they like. I’m showing myself the pie-eyed idealist in this, I know … it just creates a hostile environment.
At the very least, if they’re going to say, “We don’t accept slash,” tell us what slash means to them!
Steel says in an earlier comment that she got by on SoA for some time with an OC gay couple in the background of her stories; I don’t consider that slash, but I bet a lot of people would. I don’t consider a story where Maedhros–canonically unmarried–”just happens to be gay” and there are no personal details about his sexuality to be slash either … but I bet a lot of people would, and I wonder if that story would be allowed on SoA or OSA.
@Zhie
Still the profession of libarians is more considered to be a women’s world, as opposed to other professions like the surgical one of Steel. Once a woman wants to employ her talents in a (traditionally) male dominated field its a different ballgame.
Still the profession of libarians is more considered to be a women’s world, as opposed to other professions like the surgical one of Steel. Once a woman wants to employ her talents in a (traditionally) male dominated field its a different ballgame.
I completely agree with you that on the wheel of professions, the librarian space is undoubtedly colored pink. However, although the field would be considered librarianship for what I do (or higher education, depending on the person), the role I have is in management. I was joking with someone just the other day that it has been so many years since I reshelved a book that I’ve lost count, and could potentially get lost if made to wander into the stacks. I oversee a staff split 50/50 gender-wise, with over half of them older than I am. Luckily, I have a great staff, but I remember when I was interviewed, questions came up concerning whether or not I would be able to handle certain situations — basically, thinking a woman could only manage staff her own gender who were younger than she was. This wasn’t from the whole panel, but there was still enough for me to recall it.
Management is a whole different world. Within the confines of the library, it’s one thing, but outside of it, I’ve generally found from the impression I get from many people if you’re a guy, then you’re talented, and if you’re a gal, then either you slept with someone (and yes, I’ve had three people so far ask me to my face if I did) or you must be one heck of a b—-.
More on the topic of cute… I asked a guy’s opinion of the whole couples who are cute, couples who are hot thing, and his reply to it was that f/m is sexy, and f/f is sexy, but he thinks it’s silly when he sees two guys kissing on-screen, because it ‘looks ridiculous’. He went on to further explain that he has seen gay friends of his kiss and snuggle, and he thinks that they’re cute (ha! I felt redeemed!), but he doesn’t think of them as hot or sexy… but lesbian couples, for him, are hot. So, I’m sure that’ll open up a whole other can of worms now, but I felt SO much better knowing someone else would use the word cute. (We further discussed the whole cute vs hot thing and how that could be found offensive, and while he agreed that he could see that women might take issue to it, it’s not the individual that the label is applied to, it’s the couple and their interactions — and obviously, not all couples act or are cute together)
I also spent the noon hour having lunch in a popular diner-type place here, and conducted a little non-evasive social experiment, watching couples and their interaction. There was quite a lot of diversity (I chose this place because of that), and with the exception of the couple who was trying to hurry up their kids to get done without getting too much food on the floor, I would say that the couple interaction viewed was all falling into the ‘cute’ realm.
Also, I learned that a LOT of little kids will drink the creamer from the little single serve packets on the table. Is this normal behavior? It wasn’t like, oh, one kid did it… lots of toddler and preschool agers were doing it, and even were getting help from their parents in opening the packets. I don’t recall doing that as a child, nor can I recall my siblings ever doing this. I know, this is SO far from the original discussion, but I just stumbled into this yesterday and it’s been on my mind all morning.
Still need to go write slash this weekend…
Zhie, I think I understood what you meant by your original “f/f couples are more cute than hot to me” comment. I have to admit I can’t find any pairing “hot” but if I feel they’re “cute,” that means they’re clicking as “effective writing” for me on some level–and I don’t mean anything negative about the couple–”cute” ideally means there’s something charming and attractive about something.
I did have to think about a lot of the times I’ve used the word “cute” and the times people have used the word “cute” on me, though (and not just with regards to the working or academic worlds). I’m so much bigger than any betta fish I’ve ever seen that when bettas have bitten me with enough force to knock themselves backwards, all I felt was a weird little tickling feeling. So when I see a betta acting extremely aggravated toward me and expending a lot of energy to try to make his/her feelings clear, I keep talking about how it’s so adorably cute that angry betta is (though if I saw a dolphin or a dog acting the exact same way toward me, I’d probably be pretty damn scared!). And it’s “too cute” when I see a little kid or an animal trying to do something that adults/humans do, with so much more effort than an adult human has to use.
Then compared to a lot of other adult humans (especially men), I’m small and I guess still look like a teenager, myself, not to mention fairly timid and very soft-spoken. When I get visibly angry around people larger and bolder and basically just more powerful than me, the response from them is often, “You’re so cute when you’re ticked off!
”–and maybe a bit of teasing on top of that, where if my brother (who’s not an aggressive or generally scary guy) had been acting the same way as I had, people probably wouldn’t have been smiling and chuckling so much at the situation, and I’ve definitely never heard the word “cute” applied to him like that (at least not since he was a little kid).
So I guess “cute” is often used as a way to minimize someone else and point out how powerless they are (or seem), or even to suggest that their power is just how they look, and not what they can do.
Which isn’t to say I’d be insulted if someone said, “You look cute in that outfit,” or if I ever got into a relationship and had people tell me, “You’re a cute couple” (whatever the gender of my partner). I still tend to think of cute as a “positive” term even with the negative uses I’ve encountered. But I can understand how it makes some people feel to hear the word applied to adults.
Erm, this comment ended up being more thinking out loud for myself, so my apologies if anything here kind of sparked a “Yeah, I already knew that” feeling.
@Linda: The only thing that alarms me a bit in your remark is when you say that you choose not to read certain stories because you feel as if one of your favorite characters is being slandered. The same accusation could be applied to any interpretation of a canon character that someone doesn’t like – it could be applied to the clown!Gimli characterization by those who think Dwarves are awesome, it could be applied to prankster Merry and Pippin by those who prefer the book characterization, it could be applied to evil sadist Denethor by those who think he was basically a noble person who had what amounts to a psychotic break.
I just think it’s better to stay away from emotionally loaded words like ‘cheapens,’ ‘disrespects,’ and ’slanders’ unless the intent is to hurt and offend.
@Steel, regarding your comment to Linda, she did not level any accusations against any specific writer or person; she just courteously said what her feelings where on the subject of slash; and gave her reasons for disliking ’smut’ whether heterosexual or homosexual/lesbian. I am not sure that advising people what words they can or cannot use here is the best way to encourage discussion. I understand that you want to discourage labelling and vituperation, and applaud your intent – but surely a call for courtesy and consideration would be enough; so far all the postings I have seen have been thoughtful, even if I do not agree with all of them.
We all read fanfiction stories, and other fiction, through the lens of our personal opinions and values. I see nothing wrong with that. And I think we can talk about it in a mature and non-combative fashion. If I read a story where Faramir is being sexually abused by his father, or watch him behaving in what I believe was a cowardly fashion in the TTT extended edition (ordering Gollum to be beaten, and then not even having the guts, as a commanding officer, to watch that punishment being carried out), I feel that the character has been ’slandered’, at least as much as a fictional character can be slandered (not to mention poor Denethor). I am not thinking of any particular author or story, because I have seen the plot of Denethorcorrupting/abusing Faramir sexually several times.
Do I think the Denethor-sexually-abusing-Faramir premise is worse or the same, in terms of evoking my disapproval, as what I consider the wimpification of Faramir in the movies? To be honest, I never bothered to compare the levels of my antipathy towards either premise.
I don’t want to stifle anyone’s creativity, nor do I have that right. The internet is (mostly) free; and I fervently hope it remains so. I think I have the right to say what I prefer to read and what genres or premises I prefer or dislike. I hope I have that right, if I do it politely. It’s best not to cite specific and actual stories as evidence of one’s dislike, though; because as we’ve all seen, interpretation of what is ‘game’ for fanfictional exploitation is very subjective.
As for adherence to canon, slash, etc., other posters have discussed those matters with more coherence than I can.
One thing I’ll mention – unless anyone has proof that Tolkien would have cheerfully toasted the concept of fanfiction writers putting his characters through lovingly detailed sexual activities (I’ve done that), extra-marital affairs and male pregnancies and torture or hurt-comfort epics (I’ve done that or at least come close) or incest or MarySue encounters or humor/parody (I’ve done that) – then I think that to a certain extent we all ‘disrespect’ Tolkien. We are using a world, history and characters that Tolkien spent his life working on, and using it for our own reasons – because we have agendas, because it fills a void, because we want more information about certain characters than Tolkien gave us. Because we are compelled. I love writing and reading fanfiction; I think it has improved my own abilities as a writer, but the bottom line is, I believe, that if I, or any of us, really wanted to exercise our creative potential to the maximum, we would start with a blank page rather than HoME or LOTR or The Silm, and build our own sandbox instead of playing in Tolkien’s….
My intent is not to offend or hurt anyone; I am not thinking of any specific author or story (except my own).
@Raksha: I’m not suggesting that people don’t have the right to say what stories they do and don’t like. What I’m saying is that emotionally charged words like ’slander’ have the ability to hurt, whether that was the intent or not.
Some thoughts that have been jangling around in my head for the past few days …
On “canon” and compliance to canon as a way to connect to Tolkien’s world, this reminds me somewhat of the literary-versus-genre debate from when I was still in a university writing program. Then, the issue was framed as literary stories taking place in the real world and genre stories involving a degree of invention inconsistent with what we observe of “reality.” The argument was very similar to the canon/AU/shades-of-gray-between debate. To deploy an awkward metaphor, the reader was like a helium balloon on a string, floating just enough above the world to observe certain truths about that world. The introduction of fantasy elements, for some readers, were like an enormous pair of scissors that snicked the string and made the reader lose all connection between the story and the world. It made the story irrelevant.
Fair enough, and I love a well-told literary story as much as my professors and classmates did (though I’ll be damned if I can write one), but breaking with what I knew of the real world never “broke the string” for me. In fact, if I can borrow Tolkien’s own theory, it was the introduction of invented or otherworldly elements in a good fantasy story that gave me the perspective to find the truths in that story. Confining a story too closely to the real world was like introducing lead into my helium balloon: Soon I was sunk back into the miserable mire where there wasn’t much to be seen or learned.
Neither perspective, of course, is right or wrong or better than the other; I think that they are both valid ways of looking at literature and depend, to a large degree, on taste. To bring this back to stories set in Tolkien’s world, it seems similar mechanisms are often at work: To some readers, introducing too much invention on the part of the author (or too much deviation from what we know of JRRT’s real invented world, if that makes any sense) is the scissors that cut the string for those readers. But for other readers, those invented elements give the little bit of extra perspective needed to find meaning in Tolkien’s real invented world. To stick to closely to what we know of that world is the lead in the balloon that mires that reader to where they feel there is nothing to be gained from the story.
Again, I think that both are valid perspectives, neither better than the other, and to a degree at least explained by each reader’s taste.
What I observed in the literary/genre debate as a writing student, I too see in the canon/heresy debate in fandom: There are always a few crusaders who are intent on proving their personal preference as The Way, and they do so largely by attaching reasons for their preference that eclipse personal taste. As a writing student with “speculative leanings,” I was told that speculative fiction was cheap and formulaic; as a writer of Tolkien-based stories with heretical leanings, I am told that my stories are disrespectful or self-indulgent. At the same time, I have (regretably) sneered at literary authors for being unimaginative navel-gazers. And fanfic authors who stick closely to what Tolkien wrote are condemned, by some, as being unimaginative, straight-laced, dull, or unadventurous. So the mud-slinging comes from both sides and accomplishes nothing beyond creating divisiveness where none need exist. After all, 100 speculative stories and 100 heretical fanfics will not cancel or destroy 100 literary and 100 “canon-strict” stories. That is the beautiful thing about art: that our world will never run out of room for imagination.
Nor will berating a particular taste in art make it go away. All of the nastiness that has been heaped on slash stories, and they are still alive and well. I once drank the Kool-Aid for a while and believed that my “speculative leanings” were indeed a sign of weakness in me as a writer. The result of that was that I stopped writing for almost two years. Incidentally, it was for the purpose of creating heretical fanfic that I started again.
On fandom and the empowerment of women (I know, I’m like a ping-pong ball) …
I think, for me to understand how fannish trends empower or don’t empower women, I have to consider fannish literature in the context of literature throughout history. If one can wound with the pen or sword, women have largely avoided the latter because the former–the pen–has been the weapon of choice against them. We have centuries worth of literature where, if women are present at all, the purpose for “allowing” them upon the page is to present them as unintelligent, untrustworthy, over-emotional disasters waiting to happen.
But of course, this literature was mostly written by men, who certainly served to benefit by casting half of the competition as shoe-slobbering, lust-ridden traitors. Now, suddenly, we have a genre of fiction largely dominated by women writers. Have we fared any better in fanfic? Speaking as a reader of only Tolkien-based stories (and mostly Silmfic), I don’t think that we have.
It is true that JRRT didn’t give us much to work with. I did a rough estimate once and found that only 20% of the characters in the Silm are female, and most of them are relinquished to the background. But when I look at how we as fan-writers–and largely female fan-writers–have depicted women in our stories, I see some disquieting trends.
Firstly, major canon women are all but ignored: Galadriel, Aredhel, Morwen, Luthien, and Nienor, to stick only to the First Age and earlier. Nerdanel is perhaps the exception to that, but much of the interest in her derives from her role as the wife and mother of very popular male canon characters.
Then there is the paucity of OFCs. And where they do exist, again, they are thrust into the traditional role of a woman in literature: being used to illustrate the worthlessness of the gender compared to men. I come back to the example of a story recently read where the only female character existed, by the author’s own admission, to act stupid and slutty and be humiliated. I wonder if how many readers would stand to see a sole character of color or a GLBT character relegated to buffoonery and wonder why we stand by when the character is a woman.
My uninvestigated pet theory about “Sue-bashing” is related to this notion, as is the outrage against Luthien’s character for being “too perfect” or “too Sueish” from the same fans who will swoon and squee over characters like Finrod Felagund and Aragorn, who might also be justifiably criticized for being “too perfect” and, therefore, “too Sueish” as well.
Then there is the tendency of fans to shift the blame onto canon female characters for the misdeeds of the men. “But if Indis hadn’t married Finwe!” (Yes, but what if Finwe hadn’t pursued marriage with her in the first place?) “But if Miriel Serinde had sucked it up and had the strength to go on!” (Well, I’m sure that if any of the characters who died sucked it up and went on, the book would be very different, wouldn’t it?) “If Nerdanel had followed Feanor to Middle-earth?” (But what if Feanor hadn’t gone under such regretable circumstances?) “If Aredhel had been content to stay in Gondolin!” (If Turgon had understood that that wasn’t possible, given her nature.) And on and on we go.
I’ve even seen Varda blamed for marring Melkor because it’s said in Ainulindale that she never liked him much to start with.
So is there misogynism in the Tolkien fandom? In my experience, yes. That does not mean that there is not excellent work being done by some authors–many of the commenters here are among them–but I’d still say that the prevailing attitude in many corners of fandom promotes derogatory and, yes, even hateful attitudes toward women.
As far as MPREG and slash, I do not think that these genres are in and of themselves demeaning much less misogynist, though I think that they can be and, as Pink Siamese and Pandemonium point out, some of the mechanisms of eliminating women from the story are troubling. But are they empowering to women? I don’t see how they can be since the group in question (women) are not present in these stories by default. Of course, women can play roles in such stories, but this certainly isn’t a default or, in my experience, even typical. And empowerment, to me, doesn’t derive from pitting one gender against the other and making men look bad. My husband does 99% of the cooking in our family; that doesn’t empower me because it gets revenge for centuries of our foremothers’ unappreciated labor in the kitchen; it empowers me because it recognizes that, in our family, my intellectual and creative pursuits are equal to his. So we share household responsibilities more or less equally in recognition of that.
Another disturbing attitude in fandom, to me, is that women are just not interesting enough to write about. Does this account for the popularity of slash and MPREG? I honestly don’t know. I’ve seen lots of people try to “explain” slash and MPREG with the result that many of the writers/readers who enjoy these genres feel misrepresented. I know that I feel misrepresented by the characterization of “slash as means to get in touch with female sexuality” or its ruder cousin “slashers are pervs.” So I hesitate to likewise characterize other writers’ motivations, but I think it’s certainly something we could all be more aware of in terms of our personal motivations for writing and reading what we do.
Dawn, I’ve been recently bounding from random LJ to random LJ and first came across a typical argument about how people “should” react to racism–you know, white people throwing terms like “Oppression Olympics” around and scoffing about “overreactions” (because people felt offended that a doll made to look like a black baby was called “Lil’ Monkey” or something like that) and telling everyone that the way to beat racism is to act “colorblind,” not to keep reacting to things and discussing them and all that, and then later came across a post noting that there’s been yet another incident of a white actor being cast to play a character of Asian descent.
The person who wrote the latter post argues that this is why we can’t have “colorblind” casting–because the white male (especially the straight, Christian-oriented white male) is so default that people barely even realize he’s default. When all groups are given an “equal” chance, something in the minds of people (conscious or subconscious) still feels that a white male is the most convincing for a role.
I’ve also read another post in the past (possibly by the same person) that noted that society is so biased in favor of men that if something between men and women is equal, people will see it as biased in favor of women, I think because to make women “equal,” it seems to mean taking something away from men (like to change the percentage of women in a group to 50% from 20% means you have to change the percentage of men in the group for 80% to 50%–assuming we’re only talking about men and women and not covering any other group here). Even if it’s not just about “taking away from men” specifically, it is about changing what expect to see.
Anyway, I found myself thinking last week (either in response to a post by Pandemonium_213, or her LJ is simply the first place I got to write it out) that some (if not a lot) of the dislike of OFC’s seemed to be related to that. White males are so ingrained in society as being the default/important characters that anyone else stands out and strikes us on some level as being “wrong” or as someone trying to push an agenda (even if that “agenda” is just “sharing a personal fantasy”).
(Not that I don’t think some frustration with seeing original characters in fanfic has nothing to do with, “I want to read about the characters I already ‘know,’ not have to deal with new ones!” or stuff like that, mind you.)
And as someone who has to admit to going through Tolkien’s list of female characters and finding very few of them interesting without the aid of other peoples’ fanfics, I’ve been around other fandoms where female characters aren’t equal to the main male character, but they’re a lot more present, visible, and “important” than the females in the Tolkien universe are seen as being. And there are female characters I like and female characters who drive me up the wall in those fandoms, but even concerning very popular female characters who bug the heck out of me personally, I get really uncomfortable with the way a lot of people judge the female’s actions while giving the male’s a free pass. (Both of them act like brats, but she’s the one who should know better, she should have stopped him from doing that horrible thing, even though he’s hundreds of years older than her and much more experienced at handling situations like that! And that’s not even getting into peoples’ standards for “sluttiness.”)
Fun, huh?
Even if it’s not conscious sexism or misogyny, there’s so much baggage associated with attitudes toward women that even seemingly “innocent” things people do with or say about female characters can make me raise my eyebrows. Like, I don’t see marriage or parenthood as something to be taken lightly at all, but I’ve gotten really upset in the past about people taking maybe one or two lines from the text and bashing a female character for her decision not to stick around (especially fun when her children are adults anyway)–it’s probably an extension of my wariness at the way people in the real world often seem more ready to blame the mother for a child’s problems than the father.
Erm, I hope that made some sense. I think I rambled quite a bit there.
I am not, and never have been, a feminist. I think that all people should be (and sadly, are not always) treated fairly. I personally will write female characters in Tolkien fanfiction when I feel like it; which depends on what I want to write and what inspiration the Muse sends me, and what I think of the character. Some Tolkien characters intimidate me too much to write, or at least write often; such as Galadriel, Luthien, Gandalf, the Valar, Cirdan, the Ents – they’re just not as accessible unless I’m lucky and the Muse gives me a sudden inspiration.
Female Tolkien characters I have written: Aredhel, Nienor, Galadriel, Arwen, Luthien (just once, and the piece wasn’t too good), Nerdanel, Eowyn, Ioreth, Varda, Yavanna, Vaire…
I personally think that Luthien, amazing powers and beauty and all, absolutely rocks. I love it that Tolkien had the two Big Bads of the Third Age – Morgoth and Sauron – made utter fools by Luthien, albeit with the help of her shaggy mortal boyfriend and the adorable talking dog (well, I found Huan adorable). Luthien let nothing stop her; and defied death itself to reclaim what she loved the most. While it’s true that she had special powers, she still undertook some damned scary quests and trials, and came out victorious, though she had to willingly relinquish her immortality. I don’t see how Luthien can be called too perfect either; when there are many other Tolkien characters who are heavy in the virtues department – I don’t see anyone saying that Gorgeous Glorfindel, who died slaying the Balrog then came back to be Mr. Blond Elf Hunkitude Wraith-Chaser of Imladris. There is a lot of fanfic potential in Luthien’s life, too; and most of it is untouched.
And I do swoon over Finrod; whose courage was absolutely amazing; as well as his insistence on repaying the debt of honor he owned Barahir’s son.
I don’t blame Indis for the Oath or kin-slaying; because she didn’t do them! She married the Elf she loved, when he was free to marry her. If anyone is to be blamed, let it be Finwe, who seems to have doted on Feanor a bit much, and Feanor himself (yes, great genius, tortured soul and all that, also in my opinion a spoiled brat). I don’t really understand enough about Miriel to say whether she should have stuck it out as Feanor’s mother, or how old exactly Feanor was when she abandoned life – The Fading Mothers’ Syndrome is a huge problem in the Ardaverse, isn’t it?! But I thought Tolkien left it a bit vague in the SILM as to whether it was the birth of Feanor that wore Miriel out, or having nurtured (physically and spiritually) the formation of his fiery spirit.
As for Aredhel, she can’t be blamed for the Fall of Gondolin – she never told her son to betray the city; she was long dead by then. I think she was a restless and independant spirit, and found Gondolin too small for her; and maybe she had chafed under her brother’s authority and was enjoying riding around the forests as her own mistress for awhile.
I personally wouldn’t want to write Morwen not because I don’t like writing female characters; but because her life was just too depressing! (as was her son’s) I could only manage a short ficlet about Nienor. Sheesh; that whole plotline is a bummer.
I personally tend to cyber-hackle when advised to withhold certain words, unless it has already been spelled out in the rules of a given website. (in my opinion, the owner of a site has every moral right to be its dictator; as long as he/she posts those rules, if I don’t want to obey those rules, I don’t have to participate on the forum) I am usually a fairly polite person, I would never call anyone a “perv” regardless of what they’re writing, because I don’t know the person in RL; and I believe in keeping things as civil as possible when online. (also, I don’t think writing slash is ‘perverted’) But if someone said about something not that I had personally written, but in a genre I write, that this genre made her feel like a certain character was slandered; I might be surprised or disappointed, depending on the specifics of the comment, but I don’t think I would feel ‘misrepresented’ or ‘hurt’ by the use of the verb ’slander’. I’m thinking of some of my semi-erotic ficlets in my ‘Fire & Flowering’ series – if someone said that seeing descriptions of erotic activity between Faramir and Eowyn slandered or sullied the characters; I’d probably scratch my head and laugh. I just can’t get too worked up about non-specific comments dealing with opinions of types of fanfiction genres. Unless someone is saying You Cannot Write This, or You (personally) Slandered My Favorite Character, I don’t see a huge potential for pain by certain words. Aren’t we mature and thick-skinned enough to take honest and fairly neutral comments about various genres?
I have seen far more hurtful comments, in various boards, than Linda’s. Lots of words can hurt; but I am not sure one can have free and honest discourse about slash if one is afraid of being criticized for explaining in a neutral way why she doesn’t love or like slash.
I guess it all comes down to how one interprets the strictures of civil discourse…
I have put up a fair number of stories at HASA for review. In the first few years I was there I found that I was being approved by most readers, but those who voted to decline the stories tended to have a few “standard” complaints:
“Too derivative” – If I added in anything any other author had ever concluded I was accused of being too derivative. Well, as we write fanfiction we are automatically derivative by definition, are we not? And if I find an element in someone else’s story and include it in mine, usually with ample acknowledgement of the source material, then how is that necessarily being too derivative?
“Tolkien didn’t say that!’ – Oh, I hated this one. There were a few people who consistently argued, “You can’t write that because Tolkien didn’t say it happened.”
Hey, I’m a fanfic writer doing gapfillers. I’m doing gapfillers primarily because Tolkien didn’t say what happened IN that gap. I’m filling the gap! So, what do YOU think happened in that gap? If you can write what YOU think happened in that gap, why am I wrong because I write something else equally plausible? Or, if I can ONLY write on things Tolkien described, what’s the point? Are we only to write the same thing over and over from different points of view? What is particularly creative about that?
“I wouldn’t have written it that way!” – Another one I hated to see, but that I saw in response to every story I put up for review before they went to the canned responses and “You have to identify yourself to get beyond that.” I’m writing it the way I write it partly because I thought of the premise and ought to be able to write it that way if I wish; but also because I can in the end only write in my own voice, not yours. If you want to see it written in your voice, do it! There’s nothing wrong with doing that!
“You blew canon!” when I hadn’t – I’ve gotten that a few times. One person told me that Pippin, as son of the Thain, never lived on a farm. Apparently that person is primarily a Silm writer and reader, and never paid attention to the statement Pippin makes in ROTK when he tells Beregond his father farms the lands around Whitwell. It’s only when they’re back in the Shire that Paladin becomes the Thain, and it’s Pippin and a group of likely lads who head off across the fields to the Great Smial to bring back the Shire archers with his father’s blessings!
You read much Hobbit fic, and you see all kinds of treatments of the Whitwell years!
Similar with stories based on information in the appendices or other source materials. Tolkien wrote that consuming lembas causes the Sea Longing and other Elvish appetites to grow in mortals, longings they can’t usually assuage. So I wrote my story “Longings,” and was told that no way could Pippin be feeling Sea Longing, even though I’d just quoted the notes from either Letters or PoME indicating this was true. I was also accused of making Pippin behave out of character because he was no longer impetuous and careless in what he did, even though he’s now sixty-something years OLDER than when he went on the quest. Sorry, but in my experience as folk age they DO become more thoughtful and introspective! Neither he nor Merry is supposed to have learned anything about Elven cosmology or the Undying Lands, although we are told BOTH were intimate friends with Aragorn and his queen, that Merry made visits to Rivendell under the keeping of the twins and Celeborn to study the libraries there, and that all of them could question the Queen, her brothers, Celeborn (who had been married to Galadriel and before that was familiar with many of the Noldor refugees), and Glorfindel about what they knew of where Frodo and Bilbo had gone and what might have motivated them! Do I believe that Pippin and Merry remained ever innocent of any knowledge of Tol Eressea and Aman once their beloved cousin and friend went there? Certainly not!
And there was the period when I got dinged on every story because I tend to write Frodo as one who was secretly less than whole physically as well as emotionally after his ordeal. I feel toward that the way slash writers feel about other folk not liking slash–if you don’t want to read that kind of story, just ignore my stories and read stories by authors whose premise you do like. I rarely will vote one way or another on stories I feel personally are gratuitously slashy when they come up for review on HASA because I don’t want my personal bias to overrule my ability to read a story objectively and see it on its other merits; I ask for similar courtesy in return.
At the time I began to write it was not widely known that Tolkien said that the reason Frodo left was NOT due to physical infermity; I only came across that in the last few weeks, in fact. So, as far as I was concerned my premise has some rational background consdering what I know of Holocaust literature and the like. The number of concentration camp survivors who appeared physically normal who proved to have developed serious conditions during their incarcerations they were able to successfully hide from most family and friends for decades afterwards is phenomenal. That’s how I started writing my stuff, and I suppose that’s how I’ll continue on.
Anyway, as the discussion has become more general on how we tend to react to genres or approaches to writing, I thought I’d add a few more pence to the discussion.
As to what I DO vote against on HASA–stories that are so illogical they defy understanding that are NOT clearly identified as “crackfic” and those with just plain terrible writing. One writer who wrote a fic in which Gimli and Legolas are fighting an infinite number of orcs who’ve managed to make it up to the level of the Citadel and who’ve attacked them under the White Tree while Aragorn and Arwen watch from the Citadel steps and keep up a running commentary and do NOTHING to help–that I voted against; or the story in which Aragorn and Arwen are in absolute tears because their darling little Eldarion is demonstrating a bit of sympathy toward someone else–this is something to get blubbery about? Oh, come one now!
Or someone who has an eight-year-old Merry successfully forging a letter from Bilbo that has twenty-one-year-old Frodo convinced Bilbo has changed his mind about adopting him. Oh, really–the rough equivalent of a kindergarten student is able to write so well as to do such a thing? Even a third grader couldn’t pull such a thing off!
That is the type of stuff I’ll vote against. I’ll suspend my logic for a lot of stuff, but NOT for that.
I think that all people should be (and sadly, are not always) treated fairly.
I’m not trying to pick a fight or insist you call yourself a feminist or anything, but that’s pretty much the idea behind feminism. Men and women aren’t treated fairly, but we think they should be. (I get that there are some idiot feminists out there and there can be plenty of argument about what “treated fairly” means and how to go about achieving those goals, but still.)
I’m not sure it’s always clear when it needs to be (and I’m saying it because I can have a hard time not taking things personally and suppose others might have the same difficulty): a lot of the things that are disturbing about sexism or homophobia or racism are about larger patterns, not about what happens with one individual.
Like, I wouldn’t want to bother any individual to write about a female character if they don’t want to, or attack an individual story for not including women. But I do have to raise an eyebrow and wonder what’s up when I notice certain kinds of trends regarding the treatment of female characters (or any other stereotyped group) throughout a population, especially if those trends at all reflect problems I notice outside the fandom. Like, if enough people don’t want to write about female characters (even if they’re allowed to create their own for lack of interest in Tolkien’s), I figure it’s worth asking, “Why might that be?”
I just don’t want to have my own writing preferences dictated by anything other than my imagination – if I want to write male characters or female, or both, or a female character one day, and a male character another day, or even mostly male characters as protagonists; I would want to be able to do so without being asked ‘Why aren’t you writing more female characters?’.
I started writing Tolkien fanfiction, and mostly still do, because I wanted to know and read and explore MORE about Tolkien’s characters and places; either flesh out the moments he described or explore the moments he missed. And because I’m fond of Faramir, as fond as one can be of a fictional character. I enjoy writing other characters too.
If people who prefer female OFCs or more female character-centric stories don’t want to read my stories, or don’t enjoy them that much; that’s the risk I take; everyone is entitled to individual tastes. But I will doubt that I will ever write fanfiction to cater to any political or cultural trend, at least consciously, however worthwhile it may be. That’s not how my Muse works. It’s completely understandable and reasonable that other fanfic writers do write stories to advance various socio-political-cultural (sorry, I’m probably throwing labels around without much accuracy) agendas. If a such a story hooks me and keeps me engaged in its narrative, I will enjoy it, and often have. If I find myself thinking that the agenda is obvious, be it to promote the author’s commitment to feminism or Christianity or dislike of various modern political regime/activities, then I don’t love the story quite as much as I might have. I know that other readers would disagree, reach different conclusions, and that’s fine. It would be boring if everyone agreed about everything.
Am not a feminist per se, but I suppose at the same time I am one. I know I have always hated that men and women, or even boys and girls, are treated differently by the same people. Have seen too many times when girls or women are treated as inferior or paid substantially less for the same work, and a few cases where especially teaching colleagues have given better grades to girls than the boys who were doing the same level of work. Neither is fair, and both I’ve stood up for.
But if I feel like writing mostly Frodo stories and folk want to read Eowyn ones–well, there are plenty of the latter about, and Lothiriel ones, and Arwen ones. However, as we have more background given us for the male characters than for female ones it only seems likely that there will be more stories written about the characters that we know the most about and whose exploits we’ve actively followed.
I understand what you’re saying Raksha and think I agree, actually. I don’t want to see all stories in fandom written as if the writers are all scared of the so-called “PC Police” or anything. We’d probably get less fanfiction if people felt they were being forced to write somebody else’s stories instead of their own.
I also understand that it’s easier for a lot of people to get attached to the characters that get somewhat more “screen time” than others (though even characters who are nothing more than a name can have entire fan clubs, I’m sure)–it’s easier for me to read about Elrond than about, say, Celebrian for reasons like that.
Actually, I should probably apologize for possibly giving the impression that I’m angry about Tolkien fanfic writers not showing more interest in the women (I don’t know if I actually did or didn’t give that impression, but anyway)–that wasn’t really the point I wanted to go for. I was thinking more of the “individual case vs. general trend” point and not really focusing anything specifically related to Tolkien fanfiction–how it’s not concerning to see just a few TV shows where the lead and most of the main characters are straight white males, but it is a bit concerning to see that most shows and movies and things are biased in favor of straight white men, and that it seems completely normal to have a male to female cast ratio of 4:1 despite women actually making up at least half the human species.
Getting back more to Tolkien fanfiction–I’m all for serving the story and not just trying to push an agenda, but sometimes I see a need to stop and think about why something seems to serve a story. Most of the stories I’ve seen women as whining, shrieking stereotypes in would have functioned just fine without those stereotypes if the author had been willing to put in a bit more work, so when I see a whole lot of stories using those negative stereotypes, it’s hard not to wonder if there’s something more subtle and possibly problematic than “individual preferences” or “doing what’s best for the story” going on. It doesn’t mean I go around accusing individuals of being sexist or forming any personal opinions about any authors or anything, just mainly that I’m reflecting on how prevalent some issues still are in our world, even in the spaces that we find and create for ourselves.
I hope that was coherent…
I appreciate the clarifications, Niki.
Interesting points about what we see in TV and movies; i.e. the preponderance of white male leads and minority of women. It doesn’t surprise me. Many scriptwriters want to write successful shows, and consider the demographics; and may believe, correctly or not, that males make more money than female in the U.S. The power structure in the U.S. is still more white than totally multi-cultural, at least Hollywood and corporate America are…
But I have seen tremendous change in the types of prominent characters in television shows in the past 40 years. I can remember when STAR TREK was considered daring for having a black woman say ‘hailing frequencies open, Sir’ and actually appear to be a valuable member of the crew. Not to mention I don’t remember seeing black people in TV commercials back in the sixties or seventies; and now I see them everyday. If there are many black actors in secondary roles on TV shows; at least there are more than there were before, and thankfully they’re not all ’streetwise’. Forty years ago, there wouldn’t have been TV shows with an all-black regular cast like The Cosby Show or other comedies; and you wouldn’t have had a Star Trek captain who was black. The TV hit show GRAY’S ANATOMY would have had the character of the black doctor Miranda Bailey be a nurse back in the 60’s or 70’s, and Asian-American Doctor Christina Yang would probably have been a male doctor who enjoyed martial arts in his spare time…
So I believe that at while TV representation of ethnic/gender diversity is not perfect, it has improved in a major way since I started watching it…
It’s interesting to see the responses to Linda’s use of the word “slander” in regards to a canon character, but what’s more interesting is the use of it in regards to a fictional character.
Somewhere up there, in one of those posts, I mentioned that I avoided showing explicit scenes in my stories partially because (silly as it may seem) I worry about the characters’ right to privacy. And I seem to recall someone found it odd that I worried about what certain slash pairings did by eliminating canonical offspring of canonical characters.
I wonder how much of the divide between those of us who are more concerned with a canonical characterization comes from our own emotional approaches to the story?
For some, it seems, the more important thing seems to be the world and the possibilities of the setting and situations, and less on the interpretations of the characters.
But some of us seem to have very personal attachments to certain characters. We tend to approach our stories as though we are writing about personal friends, rather than the characters that were created by someone else well over half a century ago.
If we feel that Frodo or Faramir or Denethor or Thranduil or Maglor or (insert your own favorite character here) is being portrayed poorly, our reaction is more visceral than “that’s a crummy story, hit the back button”. We may say and do that, but inside we seethe a bit at the injustice done to someone we think of as a friend. I even know of a few OCs in some people’s fanfic that I feel that way about! (When a writer I have followed for several years killed off a wonderful and popular hobbit OC, I felt utterly betrayed, and unable to read her stories anymore. Yet she undeniably had the right to kill him off; he was hers to do with as she wished. It did not lessen my grief or anger to acknowledge that.)
Perhaps this is nerdery of the highest order. I don’t know, but I suspect I am not the only one who feels that way, and it is likely that this approach by some of us is what causes us to cry out at what we call OOC.
As for the lack of female characters, I have to say that many of those who have been responding to this thread have gone a long way towards creating strong and memorable OFCs, or to endow minor CCs with personalities that they never had a chance to show in canon.
The poor or stereotypical female characters I tend to see more often in poorly written stories. While there has been a lot of discussion on why Mary Sue gets such a bad rap, one undeniable fact is that while well-written ones do exist (I can think of four right off the top of my head), the vast majority of them are simply bad stories. Sometimes it’s due solely to the youth and inexperience of the authors, and time and practice will eventually solve the problem for them, even as new young and inexperienced writers spring up to follow in their footsteps.
I honestly don’t think most fanfic writers are motivated by misogyny; I think most of them are simply as used to the status quo as the rest of the world, and haven’t given enough thought to what their lack of female characters demonstrates.
To paraphrase the old saying: “Don’t attribute to malice that which is probably caused by thoughtlessness.”
On feminism: Like Niki, I’m not trying to tell anyone how to define themselves, but I must admit that the phrase, “I believe in equal rights for women but I’m not a feminist” has always perplexed me. Isn’t that the definition of feminism: believing that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men? I certainly understand that “feminism” has been colored by more radical subsets but, at its heart, isn’t it about equal rights?
On CFCs and OFCs: I think that people should write what they want. But, like Niki (I think we share a brain sometimes!
), I do think that the trends in literature–including fannish literature–are fair game for discussion and contemplation; in fact, I think they should be discussed because it’s easy to uphold the status quo in one’s writing without meaning to simply because it’s hard to pick up on. It’s simply what we’ve become used to seeing/reading.
@Larner: I had to laugh–albeit bitterly–at your rant on HASA reviews. I’ve had similar experiences (not on HASA, where I’ve only put up three stories for review, two of which for the express purpose of being curious if they’d pass!) with canatics calling me out on mistakes that aren’t.
The funny thing to me–and I’ve been saying this for years and never had a canatic answer me on this point–is how many people will ding a “canon mistake” without providing a quote from the book to prove what they’re saying. I have never had a canatic say to me, “This is wrong canonically,” and back up her/his words with a quote or even a rough cite from the book. Even after I’ve asked for clarification, I am answered with silence. I’ve had discussions with people on canonical interpretation in my stories where they bring their quotes and I bring mine, but never have I been told flat out, “This is wrong,” and shown proof that it actually is.
To me, this would be the first and least that a person could do, especially if that “ding” carries with it a degree of power, as with a HASA review. It’s one thing to remark in someone’s LJ, “I don’t have time to look it up, but I don’t recall it being mentioned that Pippin lived on a farm.” It’s quite another to leave a scathing public review on a story for that “error” or, worse, to use that “error” as reason to deny a story reviewed status.
On the occasions where I find a “canon mistake” in a peer’s story, the first thing I do is look it up. And know what? I’m usually wrong.
@Dreamflower: I totally agree with you on “nerdery of the highest order”!
Back when I still insisted that I liked reading Silmfic but would never write it, I read a piece motivated by the writer’s desire to show that “Maedhros is the true villain in The Silmarillion.” That felt like slander to me. It was like hearing a friend’s tribulations minimized by someone who didn’t know better. I was so angry that I wrote my own story in answer, and 350,000 words later, I had my novel AMC.
So talk about irrationality and nerdery of the highest order!
That writer had every right to her opinion and interpretation, just as I have every right to mine … I was just unable to see past my regard for that particular character to accept it as just a difference in opinion and not an insult.
I think many of us–if not all–have at least to a degree that character, scene, or concept that it is difficult to be rational about. I don’t think that we should suppress that; I think that we should be conscious, though, of how we react to the fictional “slanders” against our favorites. I wrote a novel in answer to the anger that I felt. Plenty of people write stories defending a character or interpretation, inspired by those with opposing viewpoints. Then there are those who flame and insult and attempt to suppress what they don’t like. (And I am absolutely not lumping into that group those who express their personal opinions about a particular subgenre or interpretation as part of a discussion like this where … well, preferences for particular subgenres or interpretations are the whole point of the discussion!
) It comes back, for me, to constructive and destructive ways to respond to stories and interpretations with which one does not agree.
On Mary Sue: Yes, most of them are awful.
I don’t think that I would have done better at that age. I remember writing stories when I was in middle school and seeing characters less as people and more as archetypes: the bad girl, the nerd, the innocent default narrator.
The problem I have with how Mary Sue is perceived/treated in fandom has less to do with vindicating them as good fiction and more to do with being troubled with 1) the level of vitriol against these stories and 2) the underlying reasons behind it. To borrow from Juno’s past rants on the subject, it’s usually pretty obvious from a story’s summary that a story is a Mary Sue. If the story happens to have a brilliant and deceptive summary, it’s usually perfectly clear without having to read much of the story, at which point one is welcome to make use of Ye Olde Back Button.
Yet adult readers will click on these stories and read them anyway just so they can … put a teenage writer in her place? I’m not sure I understand what that is supposed to accomplish. I doubt I wouldn’t have written much better than a Mary Sue at that age, yet now my stories are often praised most for their characterizations. Since I started writing fanfic when I was 23, it only took me ten years to evolve to that point.
What troubles me is not the attitude that Mary Sues are bad writing (because to most grown-up eyes and minds, I’ve no doubt that they are) than the attitude that Mary Sues are bad because they allow the author to “invade” the fictional world too deeply. OSA’s guidelines on Mary Sues illustrate pretty much every example that I could give. Now, again, I respect the right of one who pays the bills on an archive to post only what s/he wants, but some of the language here troubles me.
At the heart of Mary Sue, I think, there is the writer’s desire to enter a world she loves. That really isn’t any different from the motivations of many fanfic writers. A young woman creates a fictionalized version of herself and sends herself to Middle-earth. JRRT’s vision of Middle-earth makes it a man’s world; it is the Fellowship, after all, for a reason.
The writer endows herself with magical powers in order to keep up with the rest of the Fellowship. Who also, largely, have, if not magical, at least supernatural abilities. Of course, she is beautiful. But then, so are most of Tolkien’s good guys.
A young woman places herself in a man’s world as an equal to those men. What is the response to that? To insist that she doesn’t belong; she shouldn’t do that. The underlying theme of those guidelines I linked to is that “A young girl can’t contribute anything to the story or the characters’ mission!” That misses the point that it’s a fantasy and, I think, a pretty cool one for a girl to have, that she has the ability to be an equal to Aragorn or Legolas or anyone she likes.
An interesting case study might be to see what the fandom’s reaction would be to similar fantasy stories written by boys. The guidelines I linked try to stay gender-neutral but, I think, reveal their aim to be at Mary Sues more so than Gary Stus at the end when they talk about the “Girl Falls into Middle-earth” subgenre and begin identifying the “culprits” as OFCs, not OMCs. What if a bunch of 13-year-old boys started invading Middle-earth, going off to Helm’s Deep (to maybe appear in lieu of Haldir’s Elves!
) and joining the battle with their magical swords and keen fighting abilities? Would the response to those stories be the same as to Mary Sues? It’s impossible to know, and it could be that those stories would receive equal vitriol in response. In which case, fandom proves its disdain not for girls imagining themselves as powerful equals to male canon characters but for young people in general. In either case, it’s not a glowing indictment, I don’t think.
And the need for some adult members of fandom to seek out these stories and put the writer in her place remains troubling.
Oh you had to mention Maglor Dreamflower and I think a deep attachment to our beloved characters is at play here. Some will probably react emotional because probably a character has gone through the same as a writer and they can relate to that character and so on. I think its a good trademark of a writer when he or she manages to make a reader feel for a character so deeply. When I read your comment and those of Larners and others, it feels to me that poor writing is more the cause of disliking a story than for example pairings or a genre (like AU). When Larner said she fould so many stories just borings, I thought… well since you read slash of others, then it can’t be that. I do think that for example when a het pairing was in there, the story still would be boring for the reader. So instead of accusing ‘genre’ writings for bringing harm to the fandom, as you also said, we could help such writers (if the want to of course), by improving their craftmanship.
I do read so many variations of Maglor and what he’d gone through. Since his fate is pretty much open ended, I cannot help but to love to read what others come up with. When I read hobbity fic with Frodo for example, I just as much love to read what became of Frodo once he returned home for example: the more variation the merrier. Or Bilbo or Merry or… you get the picture. I really find it hard to disqualify a story on intepretation, a story has to be really poorly written before I turn away.
To paraphrase the old saying: “Don’t attribute to malice that which is probably caused by thoughtlessness.”
Yups!
Rhapsody said: So instead of accusing ‘genre’ writings for bringing harm to the fandom, as you also said, we could help such writers (if the want to of course), by improving their craftmanship.
I absolutely agree. When I first began to write fanfic, from the very first story I wrote, I received advice and encouragement from those who were already writing and posting, whose stories I read and admired. That generous response made me determined to do the same for others.
I always cut a brand new writer a *lot* of slack, in terms of writing, storyline, style and canon. I try to leave encouraging and welcoming comments, and if there are some points in the story I think could be improved, and I have the time for it, I will PM the author and offer my services as a beta. And unless I know an author extremely well, I also put concrit in a PM. I don’t feel right telling someone they are wrong in a public post, unless it’s a discussion or a debate.
If I can’t say *something* postitive about a story, I don’t say anything about it.
Dawn said: The funny thing to me–and I’ve been saying this for years and never had a canatic answer me on this point–is how many people will ding a “canon mistake” without providing a quote from the book to prove what they’re saying. I have never had a canatic say to me, “This is wrong canonically,” and back up her/his words with a quote or even a rough cite from the book. Even after I’ve asked for clarification, I am answered with silence. I’ve had discussions with people on canonical interpretation in my stories where they bring their quotes and I bring mine, but never have I been told flat out, “This is wrong,” and shown proof that it actually is.
I do. I’ve been known to email someone and tell her “There seems to be a timeline problem with the story–according to the Family Tree, so and so was not yet born/ was dead/ was too young, and could not have done what you showed in your story.” I wouldn’t dream of being so rude as to call someone out on an error without something to back it up. If the author shows interest, I try to help her figure out a way to handle the correction, or simply advise her to label her own mistake. (If you put an Author’s note at the front of your story saying “Yes, I know that Gorbadoc was still Master of Buckland, but for the purposes of the story I needed to have Rorimac already in that position.” then you avoid having someone else point it out to you. *grin*)
But I’ve also been on the receiving end of that sort of thing, so I do know people do it– I have had more than one canonical “error” pointed out to me, and I usually just quote my source in my reply. I also once recieved *unsolicited* “beta advice” that a certain word I used was wrong–it was “too modern” and “too American”! I was able to show the person a citatation that the word was in use in England as early as the 17th c. I was huffily informed that perhaps it was, but it wasn’t common and it didn’t “look” right.
I didn’t change the word.
An interesting case study might be to see what the fandom’s reaction would be to similar fantasy stories written by boys.
I do not know if the *author* is male or female, but I do know that there is at least one “BOY falls into Middle-earth and joins the Fellowship” story nominated for a MEFA this year. The story falls about midway in the spectrum of such stories– it’s not brilliant, but it’s not all that bad, either. Yet if it had a female protagonist, I doubt if it would have been nominated at all.
So perhaps that does demonstrate something to do with the bias against a female protagonist.
I’m not exactly certain what.
Some years ago my husband and I went to a Star Trek meet at the Seattle Center, and the star attraction was Gene Roddenbury himself. He was describing the pilot for the series, which starred Jeffrey Hunter (my earliest Hollywood hearthtrob!) as Christopher Pike in the episode they eventually worked into the series as “The Cage.” The original plan for the series was that the crew for the Enterprise would be fifty-fifty, half female and half male. The network was absolutely aghast–that would NEVER do, they told him. They bargained with him, and he finally accepted one fourth of the crew being female. As he put it, “One healthy young woman per every three males–yeah, I’d think she could handle that!” They didn’t like that Majel was cast as Pike’s Number One, and wanted him to get rid of that weird guy with the pointed ears and the hysterican personality. He kept Spock but gave him the original Number One’s more controlled personality, put Majel into the hospital wing as the nurse (he said, “I kept her in the show if in a lesser role, but then I married her!”), and had to change around the bridge staff a bit as Hunter had other commitments–I can’t remember when he died, but I remember I was heartbroken when I heard of it, and Shatner became quite a different captain than Pike.
There’s no question that there are a lot of books and stories and movies and such that focus on male characters, and certainly the vast majority of the major characters in LOTR, the Sil, Children of Hurin, and the rest of Tolkien’s Arda-based works are male. And at the moment I’m working on a short story that has five male characters and two female ones, four of the males canonical and the two females OC. That the two females are ponies is perhaps lamentable.
But the plot of the latter part of the story looks at the females we know as names in family trees, and how they might have related to Frodo Baggins. I hope that although they don’t appear in person in this particular story, still they have had an impact and, I hope, are seen as individuals worthy of respect and even honor. And I’ve tried to do this with the other stories I’ve written as well: I hope that my version of Arwen isn’t seen as retiring and wimpy, and that my Eowyn isn’t too one-dimensional; I’ve tried to make Esmeralda Took Brandybuck and Menegilda Goold Brandybuck into women we can admire even at the times they might exasperate us; I’ve written Eglantine Banks Took as a bit hysterical and yet at the same time I hope sympathetic so that we can begin to appreciate just why she tries to reduce Pippin’s accomplishments to “he was safe, my little boy!” I’ve tried to give Gilraen reason to feel frustrated and fearful, having given so much hope to others she’s left none for herself. I’ve even tried to give Lobelia and Lalia a human side so that although they are the characters we love to hate, we also can truly feel sorry for them because they are so much less than they could have been, and much of that due to their own choices–and yet there is the chink in their selfishness that allows for one to see how they might find their salvation, as we know Lobelia in the end did.
Tolkien and Lewis and others within the Inklings felt that since they couldn’t find the types of stories they wanted to read available in the world, then it was up to them to write them. And I think that the same is true for us. If we want stories of realistic women, we need to write them! Most fanfiction writers in our fandom are female, after all; we all know both good and strong and weak and wimpy women–let’s get them depicted.
I believe I’m doing my part in making this happen, and I know that Barbara is doing so and most others who’ve written to this thread.
It’s up to us to write the types of stories we want to see if we are going to lead the way to others leaving off writing basically male-based stories. Tolkien managed to prove that fantasy is a viable genre to write for adults, against all the conventional wisdom at the time that dictated that fantasy was strictly for children to read or to be read TO children. Well, if we want Arda-based stories in which richly characterized women abound, it’s up to us to put them there if others won’t do it for us!
@Dreamflower:
I don’t feel right telling someone they are wrong in a public post, unless it’s a discussion or a debate.
I wanted to cheer when I read this. I have had this view for years, that unless I know the person wants public concrit, then I always handle it privately and, then, only after asking. From a purely selfish perspective, I don’t want to take the time to write an in-depth critique of a story the author has no plans of editing!
From a less selfish perspective, not everyone is trying to be the next Ursula K. LeGuin, and I respect those who are just writing to have fun. My opinions are not so pressing that I can’t keep them to myself.
But I suggested in a discussion of concrit once that it is a good idea to ask before offering concrit, and people were aghast! I don’t think it’s rude, necessarily, but the same people who complain that writers ignore their concrit might get better mileage, I said, if they asked the author first if she cared for concrit.
Anyway, I’m glad that there’s at least two of us who do it this way.
I also once recieved *unsolicited* “beta advice” that a certain word I used was wrong–it was “too modern” and “too American”! I was able to show the person a citatation that the word was in use in England as early as the 17th c. I was huffily informed that perhaps it was, but it wasn’t common and it didn’t “look” right.
Valar. Don’t even get me started on the whole “American versus British English” debate. I’m a U.S. citizen, and I write in the language I have used my whole life and that is part of my identity as an author. Or the notion that if a word was not around before or during the Renaissance, then it is off-limits to Tolkien authors. The books were written as “translations” of other, older (imaginary) sources, so to write in the actual language of the sources, they’d have to be in Westron, Sindarin, or Quenya. JRRT’s early 20th-century British voice is just the voice of another translator; my voice in my stories is my (21st-century U.S.) voice as a translator.
I am sometimes tempted to write a Tolkien story in Middle English. Concerned that a word isn’t old enough or English enough? Well there ya go.
@Larner: *applauds* Well said!
I am, at times, tempted to set up an archive for stories about the women of Middle-earth. If only I had more hours in the day …
Dawn said:
I am, at times, tempted to set up an archive for stories about the women of Middle-earth. If only I had more hours in the day …
(Now you’ve given me a little idea…*grin* (No, not an archive by itself, but… hmm. *goes off furiously to think*)
@Dawn
Well I need more hours in a day as well, but then again… why not? I might have a few annoyed male elves who will stomp their feet and will pout that they want in too…
Well boys are allowed! The story must just also have a significant female presence!
Not like I thought about this over lunch or anything.
*whistles an innocent tune*
Well, I have a fair number of ladies I’ve included in my stories, including a number of OCs such as Narcissa Boffin, Will Whitfoot’s wife, maids in the Citadel of Minas Tirith and minor nobles from Pinnath Gelin, embroidresses, noblewomen from Harad and even a former courtesan from Khand who ought to work in well–as well as a number of girls and lasses who have doted on various characters, as well as the more typical ladies such as Lalia, Gilraen, Nerdanel, and even in one story Luthien.