As a student of Mythology, the Elves….Well, a friend said “Elves will boff anything that moves and then they will boff something that doesnt move until it `does` move`

Possibly based upon Shamans and oh my goodness we know what they did, dont we?

(Did any of Tolkiens characters cross dress?)

Its also best not to enquire what a race of pre pubesents get up to.

I read Tolkien at 16, some years before I knew any gay/bi people, and even before I had an intimate relationship with any-one.

No-one I knew had read the books, there was no internet, etc. I read the Silm and mentally paired up Glorfindel and Ecthelion and Maedhros and Fingon because it just clicked into my mind as *right*. There was no influence save a non-judgmental upbringing, and I never took it any further, as I did not feel competent to write in Middle-earth for almost two decades, but it was always filed away in my mind from that point. So, whatever Tolkien *meant* I saw M/M relationships at 16 and did not find it appalling or sinful, in fact it became *canon* to me. I thought Tolkien *meant* a reader to pick it up. Therefore writing slash to me is natural. I’ve never written more than a hint of femmeslash in Tolkien, although I did in ofic years before fanfic, but that is probably more to do with Tolkien’s general treatment of female characters, since I certainly do not find it off-putting. When I first came across it (it was Arwen and and OFC) I thought it was intriguing, and as believable as M/M.

Steel’s comment: ‘It happens. It’s part of human nature.’ is exactly what I believe; for Hobbits, Elves and Men and orcs too . Obviously no one person who reads JRRT gets the same *feeling* or *message* from the books.
When I first came across the anti-slash thing, I was gobsmacked. I believed in gays/lesbians/bi characters in Middle-earth from first reading him in the 80’s.

All I am saying is, the anti slash/AU group clearly did not see what I saw in the books over the last twenty-three/four years, but I will not be told I was – or am – wrong in what I *picked up*.

Peace out, let us all write what we like writing. Let us be a little generous to one another.

Pandë: Oops. Sorry I hadn’t made the distinction that you weren’t the beta in question clearer. Please forgive me?

Also, on Pink Siamese’s comment of August 23, which I only read yesterday. Coincidentally, another fandom-pal and I engaged in a long discussion concerning the apparent bias against f/f pairings among those who profess to support “slash.” In that off-the-radar discussion, we noted that this bias was less sexist than it was outright misogynistic, and it was a misogyny that came from other women. So I find it interesting that there are at least some of us who have remarked on this discomfiting issue. I can’t tell you how many times my antenna have been raised by those who read and write slash and champion gay rights, eager to cry out “homophobia” when someone protests the genre, and then turn around with the “girls are icky” subtext. Uh, what’s good for the gander is good for the goose, or some sorta cliché to that effect.

I need to have a look at Hammond and Scull, but IIRC, Tolkien the Oxford don had quite a wide variety of acquaintances of different creeds, etc. Rather rare to be a tenured professor at such a major university and not rub elbows with those who — at that time — might be called “effete.’

To elaborate a little more – I think it’s naive at best to think that Tolkien wasn’t aware of homosexuality. He was in the trenches in WWI, after all. Speaking as a former military physician, gay sex happens between enlisted people far more often than I think Pentagon officials want to believe – if I had a nickel for every time I set my pen down and told some nervous guy, ‘Look, I don’t care, and I’m not putting it in your record or telling your commander – just please tell me where I need to put the swab,’ I’d be a wealthy woman.

It happens. It’s part of human nature.

I wasn’t aware what prompted the rant – but I will say one thing in reply to Inzilbeth. In response to ‘Tolkien was a staunch Catholic?’ So was Ted Kennedy. Went to Mass every Sunday, prayed frequently at the church where his funeral service was held. Not all staunch Catholics agree with 100% of what the Pope says.

When you cut through all the smoke generated as you say, all the claims of authorial intent… If Tolkien would not have stated such a thing, perhaps that would be a good argument, but it is oh so clear that Tolkien in his letter basically let go of his authorial intent and wished for others to play further. That is in these times (for example Robin Hobb) a rarity.

As for Tolkien’s own principle’s, I always wonder why anti-slashers think of Erendis and her women, her law that those who served her are not allowed to marry a man… That really strikes me as a liberal motive and not so much as conservative. And whoops, bloody hell, its in the books too!

To your other points, this is the problem that I have with conservatives in general, not just fandom: the need attach their opinions and views to a higher aim than what the facts present and to piss and moan when other people don’t go along with them. If you want to curb your desires, your creativity, your freedom–fine by me. But don’t expect that I should take kindly to, in your perfect words, being chained to a book and being told what to do by people who fancy themselves wiser than me. I think it’s illustrative that, in attempting to convince folks why writing gay characters in Tolkien’s world is wrong, one never hears these people cite anything from the books. The so-called “canatics” are amazingly devoid of “canon” where this issue is concerned. Instead, they trot out Tolkien’s “intent,” his religious beliefs, and of course, their noble protectiveness of his world. None of these things are relevant to whether or not it is “canon” that there would have been GLBT characters in his world. Instead, they try to force acquiescence by guilt-tripping people who offend those entities that are larger than the text: intent, Middle-earth, Tolkien himself … God, for all that I know. I’d like, for once, to see one of these people actually quote from the texts they are so fanatical about in proving their points.

And, yes, most of them are probably nice people. I’ve no doubt that many of them do have friends and family who are GLBT and whom they love. Some of them probably even vote and act in a way to advance the rights of GLBT citizens … and that somehow makes it worse to hear these people being so dismissive of “slash” simply because it concerns GLBT relationships–and seeing nothing wrong with that! Good people feel it is not only correct but necessary to speak out against fiction that represents GLBT characters and that is thought to be acceptable? That to have non-heterosexual characters in a story somehow taints or disgraces an imaginary world or–at best–is simply an unneeded indulgence? I know … I am preaching to the converted. But I am really unable to wrap my brain around that one.

It is apparently very hard to think outside the box and to pick up on the professor’s invitation to attempt to create a world that ‘would leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama’ (see the Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter 131) . I am immensely disappointed that a member of a society would basically deny anyone to follow such a request. And yes, in such a line I can see the invitation for writers to explore sexuality, to write erotica (not so much for myself, but it comes so easily for me, a friend told me that it is because I am a sensual being), or explore the social issues one will encounter when they are bisexual or homosexual. If in your heart you cannot add more to his canon, fine, but give others the freedom to do so. There is really no need to chain everyone to a book and slap them on the wrist if they even dare to think something else.

But oh, I wasn’t saying anything homophobic, I was just pointing out that I didn’t get why there had to be a lesbian relationship like that in the show!

My friend (who, btw, wasn’t a fan of that pairing if that would matter at all to anyone) eventually came out to me, and then a while later, while he was trying to cheer me up when I was depressed, he sent me lines from an old e-mail a mutual friend of ours had written reassuring him that I wouldn’t hate him once I learned he was gay because I was “too cool” for that. Later it kind of hit me then that my comments that probably never surpassed “Why do there have to be lesbians in this fiction?” or “God didn’t intend for things to be that way” could still actually have been as hurtful to him on a personal level as seeing somebody like Fred Phelps holding up a “God Hates Fags” sign on the news. Because if a *nice* person–especially his own friend–in a space he *likes* feels like that, why should he feel safe with coming out?

So yeah, I definitely understand your teeth-gritting here.