I didn´t mean that I saw anything redeeming in the notion of white heroes in a movie about Asian fantasy. It´s just that I feel that it takes the Westernization of the content (Asians behaving like Americans) to the plane of the form. If the audience sees a white actor playing an Asian they can always laugh at the absurdity or feel indignated, but if they see an Asian actor in an Asian background behaving like an American, chances are that they will just find it normal, and feel, once again, that the whole world thinks and behaves like them. The more subtle the outrage is, the most dangerous, one could say.

Secondly, Asian people do live in Western culture and, there, uphold Western values. It’s not as though there is a tidy dichotomy of Asian person = Asian values and white person = Western values. Plenty of Asian kids live in North America and Europe; plenty of Asian actors are more familiar with Big Mac and American Idol than anything to do with their ancestors’ culture(s).

That´s of course true for Asians living in North America and Europe. But the societies in “Avatar” are depicted as traditional Asian societies, so their caracters shouldn´t, ideally, know anything about Big Mac or American Idol or, at the most, think they are the names of foreign deities.

As for the audience: if they´re Asians living outside their culture, what I said about Western audiences applies to them. Seeing an Asian world with Western ideologies and behaviours will make them think that all the world is like the place where they live, as much or more as the indignant cast fiasco. More -if they see white people casted as Asians, they will (and they have) become indignant and feel insulted; if they see them behave like Americans, some, or many of them won´t even notice (depending of the level of disconnection with their original culture).

Before it starts to seem as if I feel that Avatar is Western supremacy tripe, *cough* I think nothing of the sort. Of course not. It was a Western show for Western kids, and cultural accuracy was never its point. At that age that´s – just not the point. It was nice enough that they took the trouble to investigate and take real exotical elements to build their fantasy, and drew characters that the audience could perceive as Asian. And I understand that it is offensive to have those characters casted as white actors because of marketing reasons (And insulting -all the Western teenagers who get acquainted with J-pop idols and the such are rabid about them, fandom knows no races). But for me, who like Asia as it is (though I´m very far from being an expert, as you dub me *blush*), to have this turned into a pseudo-Asian movie where the only Asian thing are the names, the background and the colour of the skin, is nothing to write home about either, and it may even look mildly distressing. Plus, I have the idea that something so glaring as the casting choices will raise a stir and question some stereotypes, while the content issues (which are stereotypical as well, and more subtly so) won´t even be mentioned. So that´s why I mention them.

Nor do I deny–even as unfamiliar as I am with Avatar–that it was created for a Western audience. I’m afraid, though, that I don’t see how that excuses taking characters who, in their animated forms, most people have always thought looked Asian (even as I recognize that, Avatar being set in a fantasy world, they’re not really Asians) and casting them with a bunch of white kids.

Because, first, as you point out, Avatar is fantasy. So it’s not as though the show Westernizes actual Asian cultures. I agree that that would be distasteful. And I could see how, especially for people like you who are very knowledgable about Asian culture and history, how that would require you to suspend disbelief too far to enjoy the show. But that is why it works as a fantasy.

Secondly, Asian people do live in Western culture and, there, uphold Western values. It’s not as though there is a tidy dichotomy of Asian person = Asian values and white person = Western values. Plenty of Asian kids live in North America and Europe; plenty of Asian actors are more familiar with Big Mac and American Idol than anything to do with their ancestors’ culture(s). So I fail to see why those kids watching Avatar and those actors who would have been perfect for such a role do not factor into this discussion. The choice to cast Avatar with all white actors seems to me to be less an insult against Asian people and actors with traditional backgrounds than it is against Asian people and actors from Western nations who relate to the values in Avatar yet are told that, when it comes time to pick heroes, people who look like them will not suffice. Therein lies my problem with the casting for this movie.

Furthermore, as noted in the post, although the movie could not be cast with Asian actors as leads, Asians were specifically recruited as extras. So I doubt highly that the producers of the movie were thinking that it would be jarring or insulting to Asians to borrow from their culture where it was “cool” but to suggest that Asian people actually uphold Western values. If this were the case, then the movie producers would be putting all white people in the movie, not just as the heroes, using Asians where it creates exotic dressing for the show.

No, it seems to me that the producers of this movie recognize that people like to see themselves as heroes. And, in choosing not to give Asian kids a chance as heroes, they tell me that they don’t think that Asian kids matter enough in Western culture to get their chance as heroes, despite a market inundated with white-kid heroes. Asian kids do, however, look nice in the background. I’m sorry, but I can’t see anything redeeming in that notion whatsoever.

White domination is, indeed, a very bad thing. Having the heroes of all our mainstream movies casted as whites is a very impoverishing thing (though I mainly watch Asian movies so it doesn´t affect me a lot). In this particular case, however, there are some things I would like to clarify.

As a matter of fact, “Avatar” (and don´t get me wrong, I like the series in spite of everything -for what it is), is not manga, or an even remotely Asian product. It was written, produced and broadcasted in the US, and geared for the audience there. It´s SET in a fantasy world with plenty of random Asian elements (whose details have, OK, been better researched than usually), but the heroes behave like complete Americans with Western values. When I see Aang (and this was especially striking for me when I watched the third season in the non-dubbed, original US version) I see a TOTAL American kid who would belong in any other American cartoon if it wasn´t because his head is shaved and he is supposed to be a vegetarian (which isn´t exactly exclusive of Tibetan Buddhist nowadays). In fact, if he would clash somewere, it would be in Tibet.
He was created this way so American kids would identify with him. And it´s not only the characterisation. All the Messiah and Good Shepherd imagery with sheep included (see Season III, ep 10) doesn´t obviously say a thing to a real Asian. When it comes to a typical (I would say stereotypical, but nonetheless true) aspect of REAL East Asian ideology (the importance of family duty above personal preferences), they ridiculise and demonise it. Same for the equation men=warriors and women=healers in a tribal (Inuit?) society. And the caste division of major Asian societies. And… I could go on.
I don´t mean that the aforementioned societies are (or were) perfect. But if you show the audience random Asian cultural facts just so the (Western-minded) heroes who do NOT behave like Asians can arrive and prove that they´re wrong, that´s not Asia. It´s Asia-coloured Western fantasy. Any lover of Asian filmography would see what I mean, because in real Asian entertainment, the values are not the same as ours AT ALL. And a movie with white heroes and colourful exotic background is the form that fits this content, in my opinion. If the content had been different, I would have expected a different format, but that was not the case.
Could the content have been different? In a series for American kids, which is supposed to teach them Values (as opposed to “complicate their young heads with cultural, politically incorrect differences”?) No, of course not. (I was angry at the ending because it was quite trite and disappointing, until someone told me: Hey, it´s a kid series! How did you expect it to end? This applies here too).

The problem is that there were entirely too many adults watching that series. And that at some point they (I included) felt they should have been taken in account, too.

Now: would I want a movie with Asian heroes at all? Hm. While I generally prefer Asian actors to Caucasian ones, I suspect that HERE I just wouldn´t tolerate it because of what I said of the content. Asian actors in a traditional Asian background and behaving like modern Americans -gaaah, no, that´s too much! *bangs head against desk* It would infuriate me far more. Personally- that´s just how I am.

Another thought: This also made me think of another outraging project for the following years, which is the Dragon Ball movie. Apparently, Goku is going to be an American high-school dude, and this has also raised outrage. But here again, there are things to clarify. The original character is Japanese (this is a real manga source), but he had, in turn, been ripped off from a Chinese legend. And when he was ripped off, of course, he was “Japanesified”. In such circumstances, I wonder if one can blame the US for “Americanising” him in turn. This brings me to all the works of literature which have crossed frontiers and become changed in the process. Indian stories were “Arabified” (Arabian Nights), Chinese stories were “Japanesified”, Phoenician and Persian stories were “Grecified”, and apply this to whatever country name is left for me to butcher. This goes wholly against my personal tastes, because what I enjoy the most is cultural difference. But I can´t blame it, either. *shrugs*

Last: you were looking for an example which would convey what an Asian person feels against the discrimination of Asian people in Western movies. I have a much better one: watch a Chinese or Japanese movie or series where there are Western people depicted. Enjoy those Asian men playing Western men with fake red moustaches and heavily accented English, and those caricaturesque, ugly and idiotic evil Western villains who always lose against the noble Chinese hero.
The world is a stupid suburban neighbourhood

On Arwen in the FotR movie, I regard PJ’s movies as a fan fiction. If he had to go “AU” and change something, I’m glad that he made a change that gives women a more empowered role than JRRT did. (Also by not including Eowyn’s bone-headed avowal to turn in her sword to go off and make babies and dinners for Faramir.) I love JRRT’s books (as you know ) but he stuck it to us hard; I have to hand it to PJ for at least taking the revisions that he made into a positive direction.

You . . . you . . . you’re Sparrow Pidgeon! One of my favorite Dykes To Watch Out For characters!

I do, however, prefer to err on the side of caution when attempting to speak of other people’s experiences because, while I can draw on my own experiences with other forms of oppression, and I can draw on empathy, then I can’t know what it is to be in another person’s skin. Not entirely.

My preference, then, is to let people speak for themselves whenever possible and to be cautious in assuming that my own experiences translate directly to theirs.

In the example of replacing Galadriel with Celeborn, I don’t think that this is the exact same thing as substituting the Asian characters in Avatar with white characters. I had hoped that some white women, who might otherwise shrug and move on, might be more empathetic to the issue if the idea of substituting one character for another was put into terms that spoke more to their own experiences. I don’t think it’s a direct translation, though; hence my caution as far as investing that example with too much importance.

On the last points, I agree there too. I prefer to listen rather than speak about others’ experiences but (as evidenced by this post itself) I also feel that I have a moral obligation to speak up when I see something unfair or unjust. As for the last point about the oppression of Beta Group by Alpha Group, it seems to me that this hearkens to the idea of oppression or privilege as a summation, i.e., I’m female + bisexual + Asian so that gives me more “points” than you who are male + atheist + in a wheelchair, so I have more of a say or my issues are more important than yours. And I’m allowed to be dismissive or disrespectful of you. (Obviously, I’m not actually talking about you and me here! ) And that particular idea I find maddening. I think we all have an obligation to listen and try to minimize the harm we do to each other, no matter what has been done to us, but I am, admittedly, a pie-eyed idealist, and here is no exception.

Not precisely, one hundred percent, in every particular, no. But you can certainly make the analogy from your own experience and empathize. Only a total wankhead would try to stop you from doing that.

I think, sometimes, people assume that because they’ve been oppressed in one way, then that automatically qualifies them to speak on the oppression of others.

And I tend to think that these people do have a point. While the particulars of oppression may change, there are some factors that are common all across the spectrum, and (to the extent that the word “qualified” actually has any meaning here, which is another thing I question) that would make the objects of oppression qualified to speak about it. In analogy, yes, and accounting for the variations in types of oppression, but honestly, that’s exactly the sort of thing that builds up anti-oppression forces. It’s why so many Jews involved themselves in the civil rights movement, for instance.

The problem is when you get into situations where a small coterie of people of Oppressed Category ? decide that their oppression is so unique and so special and so all-encompassing that no one else can possibly imagine what it’s like, analogy is impossible, and that they and only they may be allowed to speak about it, and everyone else must shut up and listen. This tends to go hand in hand with a subset of this coterie declaring that they cannot possibly be accused of oppressing Oppressed Category ß because the very act of pointing out their oppression of ß is oppressive in and of itself.

This is the point where I cry bullshit.

Or: just because, as a woman, I’ve experienced sexism does not mean that I can understand the way that racism has affected a Black man or a Latina woman.

I think, sometimes, people assume that because they’ve been oppressed in one way, then that automatically qualifies them to speak on the oppression of others. That was the point I was trying to make in my comment, and the pitfall I was trying to avoid in my post. Sorry it wasn’t clearer.